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So when can we expect some kind of nerf to kick in the back


Raislin
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The state of this skill at the moment combined with the other skills rogue has is stupid. There's a few fixes i propose.

 

1. Make rogues debuff be the only one that doesnt go to the negative (makes no sense really so not my preferred option)

2. Make kick disappear after the one that has the debuff attacked x times. (used to be 5 long time ago but thats a bit low so maybe 7, dont really like either but its an option)

3. Make the cooldown of it much longer than it is at the moment. (Fully loopable with pretty much 0 cdr and easily loopable with lv4 extermination that most rogues run anyway)

4. Reduce the amount of lost accuracy to 5-10-15-20 or 10-15-20-25% instead of max 40 or 45% its at the moment.


Some combination of 3 and 4 would work imo. And before anyone even says "just get accu bro", besides the rangers and mages who have a decent accuracy boost from their skills i have 25.8% accuracy unbuffed which is probably the highest you can get without having accuracy book and still having usable enchants on my gear (also includes guild accuracy obv). As it stands basically everyone goes to some amount of - accuracy regardless of builds and some casters and tanks probably go so much -% that rogues have a 100% dodge rate.

 

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let's compare? shall we nerf the patron of the druid then? because healing 3 or 4x more of the hp's goodness is not stolen? shall we nerf the magician? because in addition to having the same skill as the rogue, only newskill, there is the barrier that teleports you to another dimension and your basic defense buff shall we nerf the seeker? who has the harad shield and the same skill to recover hp from rogue? let's go to the bd? that has 3 stacks of anti stun? besides the possibility of having a full stun build? are we going to the ranger that gets high precision, dodge in addition to incredible damage? not counting the traps? let's go to the paladin, who in addition to healing, has high damage in area and in pvp, you can see in the arena, how much that shield that surrounds him tanka, is unbelievable from being so stolen. the rogue's essence is to dodge, taking the rogue's dodging power is the same as taking the essence of a tank tank or healer to heal look, I could spend the whole day talking about so many classes that deserve nerf, which are all, or almost all ... the difference is that some players only look at their navel and complain about various classes, because they want their own class to always be the most buffeted

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I partially agree with @Justice5322. Rogues have got nothing else to defend themselves with, and they remain squishy against resist classes or ranged classes. 

 

The sentinel side, moreover, has got the possibility to make several allies buffed with the exact necessary to destroy a rogue (See mages with ennoblement or even priests)

 

It's not like this class hasn't got counter classes on the elf side, on the contrary of some Elven Classes, which have got counter classes basically on their own side. 

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Kick in the back is indeed a strong skill.

And has a high probability of getting nerfed in the future, BUT, rogues are lacking quite a bit in other aspects.

 

For example : Most of the game nowadays revolves around Guild vs Guild , Faction vs Facion events.

And rogues are at this moment not in a good spot on that aspect.

They have no CC , no area of effect damage , and no resist stun skill.

So all they can do is go around trying to 1v1 players.

 

And all that is also going to be taken into consideration. 

:advise:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Zahard said:

For example : Most of the game nowadays revolves around Guild vs Guild , Faction vs Facion events.

And rogues are at this moment not in a good spot on that aspect.

They have no CC , no area of effect damage , and no resist stun skill.

So all they can do is go around trying to 1v1 players.

 

Being a Dk in a Nutshell. 

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Just now, Lashabi said:

Seekers cry in the corner

 

There is a lot more to be said about them, tbh. But this is not the right place for that. Same story for Dks. 

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Just now, Higgings said:

 

There is a lot more to be said about them, tbh. But this is not the right place for that. Same story for Dks. 

Indeed...it's the right time Dev's should start taking "suggestions" section seriously

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On 11/28/2020 at 7:09 PM, Justice5322 said:

let's compare? shall we nerf the patron of the druid then? because healing 3 or 4x more of the hp's goodness is not stolen? shall we nerf the magician? because in addition to having the same skill as the rogue, only newskill, there is the barrier that teleports you to another dimension and your basic defense buff shall we nerf the seeker? who has the harad shield and the same skill to recover hp from rogue? let's go to the bd? that has 3 stacks of anti stun? besides the possibility of having a full stun build? are we going to the ranger that gets high precision, dodge in addition to incredible damage? not counting the traps? let's go to the paladin, who in addition to healing, has high damage in area and in pvp, you can see in the arena, how much that shield that surrounds him tanka, is unbelievable from being so stolen. the rogue's essence is to dodge, taking the rogue's dodging power is the same as taking the essence of a tank tank or healer to heal look, I could spend the whole day talking about so many classes that deserve nerf, which are all, or almost all ... the difference is that some players only look at their navel and complain about various classes, because they want their own class to always be the most buffeted

 

Personally never had any issue dealing with druids patronage after several nerfs were made to it but if you feel like its still somehow too good probably should make a topic for it somewhere else? Same applies to bd ranger and paladin, although many topics already have been made about these classes and so far nothings been done about it. Mage should even be brought up at all as somehow even needing adjustments since everybody makes fun of them for being useless most of the time, mostly due to EU mages being braindead half the time.

I wasnt asking to nerf rogues dodge. i was asking for it to be more reasonable, what i suggested in my opening post was nerfing what i deem stupid af to be more realistic while still being better than what it used to be. 

Since i main seeker and you so conveniently started talking about it lets bring up your comparison of our heal skills. First of all both are combo skills as we can observe, but if you look into it you'll spot a few important distinctions between the two.

1. Seeker needs a bleed to be active on the opponent to heal, which cannot be any bleed from any source it must be from one of seeker's own skills which all can be blocked parried or dodged. Not to mention the bleeds themselves are low damage to begin with.

2. The follow up skill can be parried blocked or dodged and besides high(ish) damage and the healing you get nothing else and most builds waste their time using the skill anyway since daggers with speed build is probably the far better build in most situations and using a skill interrupts your swing timer lowering over all damage output.

3. Rogues poison on the other hand can be applied while in stealth and can only be resisted(It's still applied even if auto attack or skill gets parried/blocked if i remember right) as far as i know since i've dabbled with rogues from time to time. Also does far greater damage than bleed will do most of the time.

4. Trickiest technique is a damage skill that heals and stuns and does high(ish) damage. So not only is the combo far easier to initiate, the chance of success getting it off in the first place is much higher. And it also stuns the opponent at least some of the time, haven't looked into the % chances but as it seems to pretty much always stun everyone i'd quess its in the 80-100% range.

 

So please dont compare those two in the future since your knowledge about the skills seem to be severely lacking.

Also seekers shield isnt as good as you think it is.

 

On 11/28/2020 at 7:42 PM, Higgings said:

I partially agree with @Justice5322. Rogues have got nothing else to defend themselves with, and they remain squishy against resist classes or ranged classes. 

 

The sentinel side, moreover, has got the possibility to make several allies buffed with the exact necessary to destroy a rogue (See mages with ennoblement or even priests)

 

It's not like this class hasn't got counter classes on the elf side, on the contrary of some Elven Classes, which have got counter classes basically on their own side. 

 

The thing is with rogues "being squishy" is that dodge is the main build they run with exception maybe being if they are hard specced for pve with maxed damage skills and the few buff skills. i assume most rogues run a similar "hybrid" build as probably most seekers run these days. 5 dodge 5 kick, 2-4 points in merc gouge or stealth, 4/4 extermination, some points in reflexes and some in trickiest technique. So as long as they dodge once most people reach 50+ dodge in general and its quite good in dodging damage. And for now i dont think there's any dedicated resist classes if you just time your skills properly in group pvp setting (bds are stupid yes but if you use your skill before they use resist skill it doesnt cleanse the kick already active) and for fighting ranged classes rogues chances are much better than majority of the other melee classes even if rangers have somewhat high accuracy. Dodging hits naturally doesnt cause any hit stagger so you'll get closer to your enemies naturally and they also have a cdr skill in extermination which lets you use jump quite often, while it like every other similar skill besides barbarians charge leaves you vulnerable at least its better than dk's and seeker's pull since they have such high cooldown or wardens switcheroo for example.

 

On 11/28/2020 at 7:48 PM, Zahard said:

Kick in the back is indeed a strong skill.

And has a high probability of getting nerfed in the future, BUT, rogues are lacking quite a bit in other aspects.

 

For example : Most of the game nowadays revolves around Guild vs Guild , Faction vs Facion events.

And rogues are at this moment not in a good spot on that aspect.

They have no CC , no area of effect damage , and no resist stun skill.

So all they can do is go around trying to 1v1 players.

 

And all that is also going to be taken into consideration. 

:advise:

 

 

As for the lacking cc skills, since legion still has the best cc skills in the game i dont think its much of an issue yes? Not like the other comparable classes have much cc either. High dodge works as a pseudo stun resist skill which happens to counter some of the strongest stuns in the game. (Hamstring, Shield strike and Charge, Repellant shield, Suckerpunch, Bowstrike etc.)

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6 hours ago, Raislin said:

 

As for the lacking cc skills, since legion still has the best cc skills in the game i dont think its much of an issue yes? Not like the other comparable classes have much cc either. High dodge works as a pseudo stun resist skill which happens to counter some of the strongest stuns in the game. (Hamstring, Shield strike and Charge, Repellant shield, Suckerpunch, Bowstrike etc.)

 

I do agree that rogue's dodge is incredibly strong atm.

But its use on Large scale PvP is close to none. I think most rogues would accept a nerf on kick if they were going to get something that helps them be useful for a guild.

 

AoE stun skill or  Anti stun skill.

 

Nowadays a lot of the endgame guilds are avoiding recruiting Rogues just because how they bring almost no utility to GvGs , War, and battle for castles.

All you can do it try to run around and 1v1 people, and that rarely ever happens.

 

So, the point isn't getting rogue into being OP,  just to a point where it can stand its ground on those situations.

Because nowadays , most of the game is focused on Large Scale PvP.

 

And i'm certain sentinels have classes with that same problem.

Hopefully the next class balance patch will help us :kawaii:

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Zahard said:

And i'm certain sentinels have classes with that same problem.

Hopefully the next class balance patch will help us :kawaii:

 

Not many. I believe seekers do. 

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23 hours ago, Higgings said:

 

Not many. I believe seekers do. 

 

Druids and wardens as well. Druid only has punitive roots for cc really and its kinda useless unless you max it 4/4 specifically for wars and gvgs everytime and thats just a waste of money. They do have tornado but its mostly just useless since they nerfed it hard after release way back when. Splash damage on water ball isnt even worth mentioning vs players since its so low.

 

Wardens have aoe agro for small debuff and powerful lunge for a bit of aoe damage but not much else. Guards protection probably doesnt work on objective targets like flags or pylons so thats probably not going to do much in damage mitigation either.

 

On 11/30/2020 at 10:27 PM, Zahard said:

 

I do agree that rogue's dodge is incredibly strong atm.

But its use on Large scale PvP is close to none. I think most rogues would accept a nerf on kick if they were going to get something that helps them be useful for a guild.

 

AoE stun skill or  Anti stun skill.

 

Nowadays a lot of the endgame guilds are avoiding recruiting Rogues just because how they bring almost no utility to GvGs , War, and battle for castles.

All you can do it try to run around and 1v1 people, and that rarely ever happens.

 

So, the point isn't getting rogue into being OP,  just to a point where it can stand its ground on those situations.

Because nowadays , most of the game is focused on Large Scale PvP.

 

And i'm certain sentinels have classes with that same problem.

Hopefully the next class balance patch will help us :kawaii:

 

 

Honestly i dont mind them having the dodge so much as that was kinda their thing always. but that new skill combined with the buffed dodge just makes me wonder what they were thinking. If kick in the back isnt changed i hope they at least remove the healing part or stunning part of trickiest technique and make it so you need the poison combo for the remaining to trigger.

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2 hours ago, Raislin said:

Druids and wardens as well. Druid only has punitive roots for cc really and its kinda useless unless you max it 4/4 specifically for wars and gvgs everytime and thats just a waste of money. They do have tornado but its mostly just useless since they nerfed it hard after release way back when. Splash damage on water ball isnt even worth mentioning vs players since its so low

 

Druids on the other hand have got an extremely high survivability ratio. They have got at their advantage the "Untouchable" stat; a stronger version of the lock, since it can heal himself

 

2 hours ago, Raislin said:

Wardens have aoe agro for small debuff and powerful lunge for a bit of aoe damage but not much else. Guards protection probably doesnt work on objective targets like flags or pylons so thats probably not going to do much in damage mitigation either.

 

The same goes to Wardens. In Mass PvP there are several important matters to take into account, one is survivability of a class and the second is how problematic is a class. If a class doesn't enter in one of these categories with a good ratio - Seekers for example or warlocks on mc side - these classes need a buff. Seekers are paper in mass combat as well as warlocks, because none of them can defend themselves properly and their strenght (lock less) relies on 1vs1 mainly. 

 

Rogues are a different story. Considering that the average ammount of accuracy a class can reach on PvP is 20% and that rogues can eventually go 50%~, it means that their survivanility is average, especially if classes like shams are fighting in these mass PvP contexts.

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22 minutes ago, Higgings said:

 

Rogues are a different story. Considering that the average ammount of accuracy a class can reach on PvP is 20% and that rogues can eventually go 50%~, it means that their survivanility is average, especially if classes like shams are fighting in these mass PvP contexts.

 

The problem is.

As melees, rogue and seekers can do nothing in those situations.

If we get anywhere close to battle, we will be stunlocked, so maybe rogues do live a few seconds longer then seeker, but stunlocked it'll do nothing , so in the end it doesn't change much.

 

In those kind of battles , tanks can be used as dps taking sponges, and be sent first just so enemies will target them and take longer to kill the damage dealers. 

(DKs cant do much as physical tbh, for them to be usefull, have to play as magic, and use every stun crystal/item possible)

But melee damage dealers need something that helps them atleast have some mobility.

 

Blade Dancers already do.

They have a sprint and an anti stun skill.

 

But seekers and rogues can't do much.

 

 

:poking-crazy-rabbit-emoticon:

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6 hours ago, Zahard said:

(DKs cant do much as physical tbh, for them to be usefull, have to play as magic, and use every stun crystal/item possible)

 

They can't do anything with such build as well. The only thing which could be considered as much close to a decent tanking ability is a Passive Book that Dks should basically have for free (Distortion of Life - Impossible request) mixed with a suicide skill aka Saturation

 

In this sense, rogues are far better in endurance. 

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I mean, some DKs from my guild are doing a lot of damage to the oponent guilds , with magic build.

But i'm not that experient in DK, so i'm not sure of how exactly they are doing it, i'll ask them soon.

 

But i do agree that DKs are far from strong overall.

Really niche utilities.

 

But back when i played DK, a few years ago, what really bothered me was the lack of mobility, but maybe its just my playstyle, i dont like to be static.

 

I hope it does get some changes soon enough.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zahard said:

I mean, some DKs from my guild are doing a lot of damage to the oponent guilds , with magic build.

But i'm not that experient in DK, so i'm not sure of how exactly they are doing it, i'll ask them soon.

 

But i do agree that DKs are far from strong overall.

Really niche utilities.

 

But back when i played DK, a few years ago, what really bothered me was the lack of mobility, but maybe its just my playstyle, i dont like to be static.

 

I hope it does get some changes soon enough.

 

 

 

DeathKnights are awsome with physical dmg. Ask BloodTooth aka Gorefang. Im trying a life steal build as a dk.

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On 11/30/2020 at 7:49 PM, Raislin said:

 

Personally never had any issue dealing with druids patronage after several nerfs were made to it but if you feel like its still somehow too good probably should make a topic for it somewhere else? Same applies to bd ranger and paladin, although many topics already have been made about these classes and so far nothings been done about it. Mage should even be brought up at all as somehow even needing adjustments since everybody makes fun of them for being useless most of the time, mostly due to EU mages being braindead half the time.

I wasnt asking to nerf rogues dodge. i was asking for it to be more reasonable, what i suggested in my opening post was nerfing what i deem stupid af to be more realistic while still being better than what it used to be. 

Since i main seeker and you so conveniently started talking about it lets bring up your comparison of our heal skills. First of all both are combo skills as we can observe, but if you look into it you'll spot a few important distinctions between the two.

1. Seeker needs a bleed to be active on the opponent to heal, which cannot be any bleed from any source it must be from one of seeker's own skills which all can be blocked parried or dodged. Not to mention the bleeds themselves are low damage to begin with.

2. The follow up skill can be parried blocked or dodged and besides high(ish) damage and the healing you get nothing else and most builds waste their time using the skill anyway since daggers with speed build is probably the far better build in most situations and using a skill interrupts your swing timer lowering over all damage output.

3. Rogues poison on the other hand can be applied while in stealth and can only be resisted(It's still applied even if auto attack or skill gets parried/blocked if i remember right) as far as i know since i've dabbled with rogues from time to time. Also does far greater damage than bleed will do most of the time.

4. Trickiest technique is a damage skill that heals and stuns and does high(ish) damage. So not only is the combo far easier to initiate, the chance of success getting it off in the first place is much higher. And it also stuns the opponent at least some of the time, haven't looked into the % chances but as it seems to pretty much always stun everyone i'd quess its in the 80-100% range.

 

So please dont compare those two in the future since your knowledge about the skills seem to be severely lacking.

Also seekers shield isnt as good as you think it is.

 

 

The thing is with rogues "being squishy" is that dodge is the main build they run with exception maybe being if they are hard specced for pve with maxed damage skills and the few buff skills. i assume most rogues run a similar "hybrid" build as probably most seekers run these days. 5 dodge 5 kick, 2-4 points in merc gouge or stealth, 4/4 extermination, some points in reflexes and some in trickiest technique. So as long as they dodge once most people reach 50+ dodge in general and its quite good in dodging damage. And for now i dont think there's any dedicated resist classes if you just time your skills properly in group pvp setting (bds are stupid yes but if you use your skill before they use resist skill it doesnt cleanse the kick already active) and for fighting ranged classes rogues chances are much better than majority of the other melee classes even if rangers have somewhat high accuracy. Dodging hits naturally doesnt cause any hit stagger so you'll get closer to your enemies naturally and they also have a cdr skill in extermination which lets you use jump quite often, while it like every other similar skill besides barbarians charge leaves you vulnerable at least its better than dk's and seeker's pull since they have such high cooldown or wardens switcheroo for example.

 

As for the lacking cc skills, since legion still has the best cc skills in the game i dont think its much of an issue yes? Not like the other comparable classes have much cc either. High dodge works as a pseudo stun resist skill which happens to counter some of the strongest stuns in the game. (Hamstring, Shield strike and Charge, Repellant shield, Suckerpunch, Bowstrike etc.)

Better delete rogue ? 

Then will you be happy lol

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On 11/30/2020 at 7:49 PM, Raislin said:

Since i main seeker and you so conveniently started talking about it lets bring up your comparison of our heal skills. First of all both are combo skills as we can observe, but if you look into it you'll spot a few important distinctions between the two.

1. Seeker needs a bleed to be active on the opponent to heal, which cannot be any bleed from any source it must be from one of seeker's own skills which all can be blocked parried or dodged. Not to mention the bleeds themselves are low damage to begin with.

2. The follow up skill can be parried blocked or dodged and besides high(ish) damage and the healing you get nothing else and most builds waste their time using the skill anyway since daggers with speed build is probably the far better build in most situations and using a skill interrupts your swing timer lowering over all damage output.

3. Rogues poison on the other hand can be applied while in stealth and can only be resisted(It's still applied even if auto attack or skill gets parried/blocked if i remember right) as far as i know since i've dabbled with rogues from time to time. Also does far greater damage than bleed will do most of the time.

4. Trickiest technique is a damage skill that heals and stuns and does high(ish) damage. So not only is the combo far easier to initiate, the chance of success getting it off in the first place is much higher. And it also stuns the opponent at least some of the time, haven't looked into the % chances but as it seems to pretty much always stun everyone i'd quess its in the 80-100% range.

 

So please dont compare those two in the future since your knowledge about the skills seem to be severely lacking.

Also seekers shield isnt as good as you think it is.

Before comparing rogue and seeker analyse the support skills both factions have 

Unfortunately legions do not have pala shield, the several heals of the druid, and now the Templar heal. I hope people make rational analysis with a broader mind view before making confident claims that a class is broken.

 

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12 minutes ago, Bruce Wayne said:

Better delete rogue ? 

Then will you be happy lol

Not sure how you took it that way but okay.

 

1 minute ago, Bruce Wayne said:

Before comparing rogue and seeker analyse the support skills both factions have 

Unfortunately legions do not have pala shield, the several heals of the druid, and now the Templar heal. I hope people make rational analysis with a broader mind view before making confident claims that a class is broken.

 

 

Legion has an even better heal and its shamans heal totem. I do not know how you can ignore such a great tool for large scale pvp(not to mention multiple totems stack on top of each other). Paladin shield is indeed broken but if paladins dont get buffed in otherways before the shield is nerfed they are kind of useless. Templar isnt a healer, at the moment they need decent physical to do any kind of reasonable damage which obviously means less healing from the passive. i don't understand why you bring up those classes up in the first place considering the context we have been talking about rogues and other classes in this topic so far. Druid heals are all single target skills which in the large scope of things wont help at all in large scale pvp since youll be able to heal one or two people for small amounts. Paladin shield has a really long cooldown and at best you get it on 2 people. Banner does no damage in groups of 3 and up and its best quality is the defence debuff it gives at that point.

 

The buff to kick in the back was completely unnecessary since majority of the rogue players were already running dodge builds anyway which makes it fairly obvious it was quite strong already anyway. And thanks to rogues whining for years for a stun skill they didnt need they were given one and added a heal on top of it too. It's probably because the class is so popular it was buffed so much but in small group pvp(2-5-10 players) its broken beyond belief in its current state. Because you use the skill on an enemy it just means the more rogues there are the more value get out of the skill since the enemy pretty much cant attack any rogue as things stand since all you will be doing is miss every hit (slightly over exaggerated, but still fairly likely to happen).

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14 minutes ago, Raislin said:

Not sure how you took it that way but okay.

 

 

Legion has an even better heal and its shamans heal totem. I do not know how you can ignore such a great tool for large scale pvp(not to mention multiple totems stack on top of each other). Paladin shield is indeed broken but if paladins dont get buffed in otherways before the shield is nerfed they are kind of useless. Templar isnt a healer, at the moment they need decent physical to do any kind of reasonable damage which obviously means less healing from the passive. i don't understand why you bring up those classes up in the first place considering the context we have been talking about rogues and other classes in this topic so far. Druid heals are all single target skills which in the large scope of things wont help at all in large scale pvp since youll be able to heal one or two people for small amounts. Paladin shield has a really long cooldown and at best you get it on 2 people. Banner does no damage in groups of 3 and up and its best quality is the defence debuff it gives at that point.

 

The buff to kick in the back was completely unnecessary since majority of the rogue players were already running dodge builds anyway which makes it fairly obvious it was quite strong already anyway. And thanks to rogues whining for years for a stun skill they didnt need they were given one and added a heal on top of it too. It's probably because the class is so popular it was buffed so much but in small group pvp(2-5-10 players) its broken beyond belief in its current state. Because you use the skill on an enemy it just means the more rogues there are the more value get out of the skill since the enemy pretty much cant attack any rogue as things stand since all you will be doing is miss every hit (slightly over exaggerated, but still fairly likely to happen).

I think you play different version of Warspear

Do you even compete in high level arena? If you do you will understand what we are trying to say

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Bruce Wayne said:

I think you play different version of Warspear

Do you even compete in high level arena? If you do you will understand what we are trying to say

 

 

If you are this ignorant you are the one who has a few screws loose in the head. Tell me what is wrong with what i said so i actually know what you are even trying to tell me. I can't read minds and definietly not the mind of a person like you.

 

And i do compete in high level arena. Don't know if you do because you seem to be dodging all of my criticism like a rogue who used kick in the back at the moment.

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6 hours ago, Raislin said:

And i do compete in high level arena. Don't know if you do because you seem to be dodging all of my criticism like a rogue who used kick in the back at the moment.

 

Appropriate comparison, but even now I invite to maintain the calm environment kept so far. Write 500 posts that you disagree explaining why you do, but don't start this kind of thing please. 

 

The same goes to you @Bruce Wayne

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1 hour ago, Higgings said:

 

Appropriate comparison, but even now I invite to maintain the calm environment kept so far. Write 500 posts that you disagree explaining why you do, but don't start this kind of thing please. 

 

The same goes to you @Bruce Wayne

I'm extremely sorry bro 

Snapped a bit when people kept saying rogues over powered when in reality almost all elf can counter it.

I'm sorry should have maintained the cool.

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Considering 1 vs 1 situation:

 

 It is a well known fact that Warspear is not balanced 1vs1. It is evident in the case of druid, shaman, bds etc. So why complain only about rogue?? Even in that case rogue is defeatable by many classes such as druid, bd, priest, mage, shaman I think. So I don't see the point for needing the nerf of kick in the back in 1v1 scenario.

 

Considering arena scenario:

 

KICK IN THE BACK IS NOT AOE OR RANGED. Even if the rogue manages to apply kick in back to one enemy, the other enemy can either control rogue and kill other teammate of rogue (or) control the teammate of rogue and attack the rogue. Trust me no full greatness charecter can be killed by rogue in one combo even with the 3.5 sec stun which was added recently and with the pene pot 15%( you must know this if you are full greatness and compete in high arena) 
Second scenario is using the debuff of the mage or castle pot to remove the kick in back effect. Idk what is the use of upping the skill 5/5 when it's not ranged and can be removed easily.

 

Considering gvg scenario:

 

As mentioned earlier kick in the back is not aoe or ranged. So it can practically be applied to one enemy. As a result only that enemy's attacks willbe dodge.( Even though other players attacks have chance to dodge, practically they don't as much as they should, all must have noted it). Hence with no area stun, area damage, no solid resistance, what the rogue has to offer to the guild and faction??  When out of stealth rogue can be stun cycled and killed without any effort.

 

 

 

I hope this is viewed with a rational and unbiased view inorder to make Warspear better for all players.

 

I personally think the maker of the post is a jealous seeker who thinks rogue is the top Warspear class. I invite him to check out blade dancer, druid, and some other classes before jumping into conclusion.

 

Sorry I was busy irl so the delay in this post.

 

I hope I didn't hurt anybody's feeling, if so please forgive me.

 

And I mean no disrespect to the balancing team and I firmly believe they doing their best.

 

Edited by Bruce Wayne
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I wish there will be a rework for the skill Frenzy. That skill adds dmg buff to all elfs who hits the rogue with an useless criti buff.That skill must be same like rangers Point shooting skill which adds damage buff  and accuracy buff

 

On 12/4/2020 at 10:29 AM, Raislin said:

Not sure how you took it that way but okay.

 

 

Legion has an even better heal and its shamans heal totem. I do not know how you can ignore such a great tool for large scale pvp(not to mention multiple totems stack on top of each other). Paladin shield is indeed broken but if paladins dont get buffed in otherways before the shield is nerfed they are kind of useless. Templar isnt a healer, at the moment they need decent physical to do any kind of reasonable damage which obviously means less healing from the passive. i don't understand why you bring up those classes up in the first place considering the context we have been talking about rogues and other classes in this topic so far. Druid heals are all single target skills which in the large scope of things wont help at all in large scale pvp since youll be able to heal one or two people for small amounts. Paladin shield has a really long cooldown and at best you get it on 2 people. Banner does no damage in groups of 3 and up and its best quality is the defence debuff it gives at that point.

 

The buff to kick in the back was completely unnecessary since majority of the rogue players were already running dodge builds anyway which makes it fairly obvious it was quite strong already anyway. And thanks to rogues whining for years for a stun skill they didnt need they were given one and added a heal on top of it too. It's probably because the class is so popular it was buffed so much but in small group pvp(2-5-10 players) its broken beyond belief in its current state. Because you use the skill on an enemy it just means the more rogues there are the more value get out of the skill since the enemy pretty much cant attack any rogue as things stand since all you will be doing is miss every hit (slightly over exaggerated, but still fairly likely to happen).

Druids and Paladins can save an elf from 1hp left . Shamans heal totem skill doesn't matter if u target a same mc and shamans Ancestors hand is an useless skill with very low absorption dmg. Paladins Sacred shield doesnt have a long cd , it's re-usable with high dmg absorption after the skill cd over which is more broken. Rogues only have stealth dmg buff which isn't consistent to use again in arena and rogues move weak during war if they stealth is gone. Rogues without stun skill is equal to a sheep and all classes can kill rogues easily . Bd is more broken with 2 resist skill with high auto hit consistent dmg and the old counter skill is back which is more op at wars. So the kick in the back skill doesn't matter by comparing with elfs op skills

Edited by Lwn
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Better make kick in back aoe rouges have nothing for defence in gvg 

And those who complaining about kick in back why u attack in debuff, just run and wait till it off, just learn to PvP against rouges 

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I have to admit @Bruce Wayne has put it quite well with his analysis. He's taken into account most major scenarios where kick in the back makes an impact and even broken it down and explained it well.
 

4 hours ago, Bruce Wayne said:

Considering 1 vs 1 situation:

I agree that kick back is strong in 1 vs 1 scenarios. But like he said where does this make an impact? Even with this negative accuracy update there are plenty of ways to beat rogue. A druid can full control the rogue until kick back duration runs out, A BD can switch on his resist to avoid kick back, A mage can remove the debuff completely. 

 

4 hours ago, Bruce Wayne said:

Considering arena scenario:

I'm not gonna say much. If I'm a lock who has to run 20 miles before even trying to remove a BDs resist counts, the least you could do is anticipate a rogue kick back or control him till you take out his team mates. Besides he can only use kick on one person. 2s, cruci, seals, 5s. All these modes matches you up with partners. @Raislin
 

4 hours ago, Bruce Wayne said:

Considering gvg scenario:


Rogue doesn't have Aoe stun / Resist skills. Period. They will get controlled in Large scale scenarios.

 

On 12/2/2020 at 5:22 PM, Higgings said:

one is survivability of a class and the second is how problematic is a class. If a class doesn't enter in one of these categories with a good ratio - Seekers for example or warlocks on mc side - these classes need a buff. Seekers are paper in mass combat as well as warlocks, because none of them can defend themselves properly and their strenght (lock less) relies on 1vs1 mainly. 

I couldn't stress this enough. The classes that do make an impact are BDs, paladins, mages, templars on sentinels side, They have very good survivability and has the potential to control tons of enemies. Only Warlock at legion side but poor survivability.

  1. A blade dancer wears heavy armour, Has a shield and can't be controlled and always initiate a group fight with rush which causes AOE stun.
  2. A paladin has the best shield in game. I give up on this topic. That thing is just broken. Combined the fetter which can control upto 10 enemies?
  3. Despite the recent reworks on ethereal barrier, I noticed a quirk > Previously mages had to attack to activate shield. Now it activates on its own even if they're stunned providing them with passive survival.
  4. Templars : Healing mantra and reverse flow. Enough said. "Stone body is a poor man's healing mantra" :lol:

Anyway all I'm saying is, a nerf to kick back in uncalled for without addressing some of these issues first maybe. They don't have much impact in any other scenarios except 1 vs 1. I understand it might bruise egos to see rogues win 1 vs 1 but when you consider the overall class interactions it's not something broken.


I understand it's frustrating to dodge dodge sometimes, but there are ways to counter it as long as you can keep an open mind. Tbh, I feel kick should have 2 yards range. Like BDs hamstring. But hey, everyone has their own opinion.

Edited by TheCaster
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18 minutes ago, TheCaster said:

paladin has the best shield in game. I give up on this topic. That thing is just broken

😆😆😆😆😆😄 . Give pala shield to bd bd rush with 3 resist on .keep on attacking try break 10k hp shield. 

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23 hours ago, Lwn said:

I wish there will be a rework for the skill Frenzy. That skill adds dmg buff to all elfs who hits the rogue with an useless criti buff.That skill must be same like rangers Point shooting skill which adds damage buff  and accuracy buff

 

Druids and Paladins can save an elf from 1hp left . Shamans heal totem skill doesn't matter if u target a same mc and shamans Ancestors hand is an useless skill with very low absorption dmg. Paladins Sacred shield doesnt have a long cd , it's re-usable with high dmg absorption after the skill cd over which is more broken. Rogues only have stealth dmg buff which isn't consistent to use again in arena and rogues move weak during war if they stealth is gone. Rogues without stun skill is equal to a sheep and all classes can kill rogues easily . Bd is more broken with 2 resist skill with high auto hit consistent dmg and the old counter skill is back which is more op at wars. So the kick in the back skill doesn't matter by comparing with elfs op skills

First of all frenzy isnt useless by any means as you can use it in pve. Not all buff skills are made equal, we seekers have 12% crit 25% crit dmg skill as well which has no use what so ever in pvp but its great in pve. 

 

Every healer can save from 1hp, its not as if this is somehow exclusive to druids and paladins. And im tired of ppl bringing up paladins as if they are somehow answer to all problems. Besides the shield being strong paladins have nothing else going for them pretty much. If you take sacred shield away from them at the moment they will be the weakest class right next to seekers and probably wardens and deathknights in pvp. If you want to nerf sacred shield you have to give them something back, such as old banner for example but im sure nobody wants to see 5x5 1k+ magic damage ticks again. Sacred shield also has 40 seconds cooldown which to me seems quite long, most of the time you can get it down to 25-30 seconds at best with decent amount of cdr. So if you cant kill in that time frame too bad i quess.  As for druids they have high survivability yes but if they are busy spamming all heals on themselves they arent exactly using root and other cc on enemies or heals on everyone else are they.

 

And i highly disagree with rogues dying to all classes easily. They land somewhere neutral to hard to kill for pretty much everyone. If they are running a decent dodge build of course. Without dodge build rogues are seeker without the extra damage to autos , but then again they can use axes so +-0 i suppose.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 1:50 PM, Bruce Wayne said:

Considering 1 vs 1 situation:

 

 It is a well known fact that Warspear is not balanced 1vs1. It is evident in the case of druid, shaman, bds etc. So why complain only about rogue?? Even in that case rogue is defeatable by many classes such as druid, bd, priest, mage, shaman I think. So I don't see the point for needing the nerf of kick in the back in 1v1 scenario.

 

Considering arena scenario:

 

KICK IN THE BACK IS NOT AOE OR RANGED. Even if the rogue manages to apply kick in back to one enemy, the other enemy can either control rogue and kill other teammate of rogue (or) control the teammate of rogue and attack the rogue. Trust me no full greatness charecter can be killed by rogue in one combo even with the 3.5 sec stun which was added recently and with the pene pot 15%( you must know this if you are full greatness and compete in high arena) 
Second scenario is using the debuff of the mage or castle pot to remove the kick in back effect. Idk what is the use of upping the skill 5/5 when it's not ranged and can be removed easily.

 

Considering gvg scenario:

 

As mentioned earlier kick in the back is not aoe or ranged. So it can practically be applied to one enemy. As a result only that enemy's attacks willbe dodge.( Even though other players attacks have chance to dodge, practically they don't as much as they should, all must have noted it). Hence with no area stun, area damage, no solid resistance, what the rogue has to offer to the guild and faction??  When out of stealth rogue can be stun cycled and killed without any effort.

 

 

 

I hope this is viewed with a rational and unbiased view inorder to make Warspear better for all players.

 

I personally think the maker of the post is a jealous seeker who thinks rogue is the top Warspear class. I invite him to check out blade dancer, druid, and some other classes before jumping into conclusion.

 

Sorry I was busy irl so the delay in this post.

 

I hope I didn't hurt anybody's feeling, if so please forgive me.

 

And I mean no disrespect to the balancing team and I firmly believe they doing their best.

 

 

Even if rogue is defeatable by certain classes that doesnt automatically make the skill not stupid. Theres plenty of reasons why some class can kill another and that will not invalidate an argument on its face, Priests can kill any melee class as long as they can survive a stun chain and can get the melee class to move while in elusive, even if you dont get killed by weird screen bug elusives theres not much you can do as a seeker, deathknight, paladin and probably as you mentioned rogue. So rogues getting killed by priests is by no means somehow exclusive to them, arguably of the mentioned classes they probably have the higher chance of actually killing priests.

 

As for arena scenario theres obviously the counter argument to be had that rogues partner can cc the other player in the opposing team while rogue has the main target on kick and he cannot do anything to the rogue while also having to deal with rogues partner. This goes both ways. 

 

^ Pretty much applies to gvgs and wars etc. Obviously rogue will have others helping them and being the major dps class of legion they do their job well they dont need to tank many people in most situations and if they do at least they have dodge to offset some of the damage.

 

Obviously im biased but you cannot say you are unbiased. Legion player just shines though your arguments like a lighthouse since you only bring up the stupid bs some of the Sentinel characters have and deflect when its about legion characters such as barbarian rogue and shaman. Lets not kid ourselves here.

 

19 hours ago, TheCaster said:

I have to admit @Bruce Wayne has put it quite well with his analysis. He's taken into account most major scenarios where kick in the back makes an impact and even broken it down and explained it well.
 

I agree that kick back is strong in 1 vs 1 scenarios. But like he said where does this make an impact? Even with this negative accuracy update there are plenty of ways to beat rogue. A druid can full control the rogue until kick back duration runs out, A BD can switch on his resist to avoid kick back, A mage can remove the debuff completely. 

 

I'm not gonna say much. If I'm a lock who has to run 20 miles before even trying to remove a BDs resist counts, the least you could do is anticipate a rogue kick back or control him till you take out his team mates. Besides he can only use kick on one person. 2s, cruci, seals, 5s. All these modes matches you up with partners. @Raislin
 


Rogue doesn't have Aoe stun / Resist skills. Period. They will get controlled in Large scale scenarios.

 

I couldn't stress this enough. The classes that do make an impact are BDs, paladins, mages, templars on sentinels side, They have very good survivability and has the potential to control tons of enemies. Only Warlock at legion side but poor survivability.

  1. A blade dancer wears heavy armour, Has a shield and can't be controlled and always initiate a group fight with rush which causes AOE stun.
  2. A paladin has the best shield in game. I give up on this topic. That thing is just broken. Combined the fetter which can control upto 10 enemies?
  3. Despite the recent reworks on ethereal barrier, I noticed a quirk > Previously mages had to attack to activate shield. Now it activates on its own even if they're stunned providing them with passive survival.
  4. Templars : Healing mantra and reverse flow. Enough said. "Stone body is a poor man's healing mantra" :lol:

Anyway all I'm saying is, a nerf to kick back in uncalled for without addressing some of these issues first maybe. They don't have much impact in any other scenarios except 1 vs 1. I understand it might bruise egos to see rogues win 1 vs 1 but when you consider the overall class interactions it's not something broken.


I understand it's frustrating to dodge dodge sometimes, but there are ways to counter it as long as you can keep an open mind. Tbh, I feel kick should have 2 yards range. Like BDs hamstring. But hey, everyone has their own opinion.

 

Paladin fetters cap at 5 players, 7 or 8 with relic and theres better relics to be put on there so not like anyone uses the relic that lets the skill affect more players.And cant say ive seen many bladedancers actually level up the shield skill so at best it will block like 800-1000 damage at best. Generally speaking 1 or 2 hits at the highest level of play.

 

While we are at it lets make a similar list about mc classes while we are at it so we can all realize theres no point in really brining up other classes in this conversation besides classes that can be roughly compared to each other on both sides.

 

1. Barbarian, heavy armor, cant be controlled, always initiates group fights, no aoe but has 3 yards more range and is more tanky than bd. Has long lasting single targets stuns and aoe debuffs.

2. Shamans the tankiest caster in the game thanks to aoe debuffs and aoe heal that can be combined with their new skill which makes +10 full award characters tickle you slightly on top of cleansing random debuffs.

3. Everyones favourite warlock with assortment of cc aoe and single target both and some survivability thanks to stone body making them completely invulnerable while they get skills off cooldown.

4. Charmers with their infinite cc loops and the ability to summon highly damaging minions that dont even die easily anymore thanks to relatively recent updates and they can also heal themselves or others. Can also be incredibly tanky thanks to block increasing buff and the ability to wear heavy armor and shields.

 

How about you fix some of that please(jokes), but really this is why i wanted to keep the topic mainly on compable classes as bringing other classes in the mix just makes things messy.

 

 

Edited by Raislin
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Put PvP vedios of all classes where other classes can't beat rouges with each and all other classes( both sentinel and legions) with known pro players then prove, that other classes  can't beat rouges

And I feel ppl here just put their baised openion.

And if u feel this skill so op then u play rouge and beat each and every classes, and put vedios for reference.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Raislin said:

First of all frenzy isnt useless by any means as you can use it in pve. Not all buff skills are made equal, we seekers have 12% crit 25% crit dmg skill as well which has no use what so ever in pvp but its great in pve. 

 

Every healer can save from 1hp, its not as if this is somehow exclusive to druids and paladins. And im tired of ppl bringing up paladins as if they are somehow answer to all problems. Besides the shield being strong paladins have nothing else going for them pretty much. If you take sacred shield away from them at the moment they will be the weakest class right next to seekers and probably wardens and deathknights in pvp. If you want to nerf sacred shield you have to give them something back, such as old banner for example but im sure nobody wants to see 5x5 1k+ magic damage ticks again. Sacred shield also has 40 seconds cooldown which to me seems quite long, most of the time you can get it down to 25-30 seconds at best with decent amount of cdr. So if you cant kill in that time frame too bad i quess.  As for druids they have high survivability yes but if they are busy spamming all heals on themselves they arent exactly using root and other cc on enemies or heals on everyone else are they.

 

And i highly disagree with rogues dying to all classes easily. They land somewhere neutral to hard to kill for pretty much everyone. If they are running a decent dodge build of course. Without dodge build rogues are seeker without the extra damage to autos , but then again they can use axes so +-0 i suppose.

 

 

Even if rogue is defeatable by certain classes that doesnt automatically make the skill not stupid. Theres plenty of reasons why some class can kill another and that will not invalidate an argument on its face, Priests can kill any melee class as long as they can survive a stun chain and can get the melee class to move while in elusive, even if you dont get killed by weird screen bug elusives theres not much you can do as a seeker, deathknight, paladin and probably as you mentioned rogue. So rogues getting killed by priests is by no means somehow exclusive to them, arguably of the mentioned classes they probably have the higher chance of actually killing priests.

 

As for arena scenario theres obviously the counter argument to be had that rogues partner can cc the other player in the opposing team while rogue has the main target on kick and he cannot do anything to the rogue while also having to deal with rogues partner. This goes both ways. 

 

^ Pretty much applies to gvgs and wars etc. Obviously rogue will have others helping them and being the major dps class of legion they do their job well they dont need to tank many people in most situations and if they do at least they have dodge to offset some of the damage.

 

Obviously im biased but you cannot say you are unbiased. Legion player just shines though your arguments like a lighthouse since you only bring up the stupid bs some of the Sentinel characters have and deflect when its about legion characters such as barbarian rogue and shaman. Lets not kid ourselves here.

 

 

Paladin fetters cap at 5 players, 7 or 8 with relic and theres better relics to be put on there so not like anyone uses the relic that lets the skill affect more players.And cant say ive seen many bladedancers actually level up the shield skill so at best it will block like 800-1000 damage at best. Generally speaking 1 or 2 hits at the highest level of play.

 

While we are at it lets make a similar list about mc classes while we are at it so we can all realize theres no point in really brining up other classes in this conversation besides classes that can be roughly compared to each other on both sides.

 

1. Barbarian, heavy armor, cant be controlled, always initiates group fights, no aoe but has 3 yards more range and is more tanky than bd. Has long lasting single targets stuns and aoe debuffs.

2. Shamans the tankiest caster in the game thanks to aoe debuffs and aoe heal that can be combined with their new skill which makes +10 full award characters tickle you slightly on top of cleansing random debuffs.

3. Everyones favourite warlock with assortment of cc aoe and single target both and some survivability thanks to stone body making them completely invulnerable while they get skills off cooldown.

4. Charmers with their infinite cc loops and the ability to summon highly damaging minions that dont even die easily anymore thanks to relatively recent updates and they can also heal themselves or others. Can also be incredibly tanky thanks to block increasing buff and the ability to wear heavy armor and shields.

 

How about you fix some of that please(jokes), but really this is why i wanted to keep the topic mainly on compable classes as bringing other classes in the mix just makes things messy.

 

 

You have a lot to say about a lot of classes but honestly have you been on the other end of the scale? I could pin point every last thing you said here that really doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense but as you read this you'll know what I'm referring to.

 

I hear this a lot from both sides of the fence but we all need to remember that every class is meant to be unique and server a purpose. Sometimes changing the setup you run or even changing around party members can change the fight to benefit you just keep that in mind when reading this.

 

Paladins are a joke right now, not just because of the shield but its because you can stack the shield on top of of a blade dancer that's got max resistance buff plus a shield again, even if that blade dancers shield is 800/1000 that on top of a 100% shield from a paladin keep in mind if said paladin has 10k hp we are talking 10k shield +1k 11k shield + 3 resistance buffs + resistance stats + rush which is also 100% resisted while casting and not to mention resistance pots and scrolls. Now let me ask you this, find me a warlock that can deal with that? find me anyone that can deal with that? Only people that can have shit loads of books, full greatness and generally are shamans that can face tank it (shamans with distortion book). That being said how does a rogue deal with a paladin bd combo in arena? really isn't the easiest thing to deal with that's for sure.

 

gvg and war situations well honestly doesn't it now come down to what side has the most level 10 guilds with unity to just unity to flag and win? really i only see the use of rogues for dungeons and arena that's it really Kick in the back makes no difference in gvg/war situations.

 

I wont disagree kick in the back is annoying to handle but honestly its not that hard, bds dont need to worry ty resistance priests I'm pretty sure that have redemption + an aoe heal not to mention mages have a resistance skill aswell so honestly can you say kick in the back is hard to deal with for elf? or is it hard to deal with for mc considering only 2 classes have a single resistance one time buff being barbarian and shaman, shaman being able to cast on anyone.

 

Charmers well honestly I hate them I wouldn't be upset if they deleted the class from the game and remade something else, didn't like playing it, don't like vsing it and honestly dont enjoy playing with it in arena. 

 

Current classes that need attention for the Arena aspect of the game weather its nerfs or buffs consist of this list (This is my personal opinion)

Warlocks

Blade dancers

Paladins

Druids

Now these can honestly be fixed with a simple mechanical change of the resistance stat and how it works but honestly from someone's point of view, someone's personal experience against a class in small or large scale classes we all ♥♥♥♥♥ about other classes being stronger than others, I'm a warlock main and have been for yonks and honestly its not easy being a warlock and I hope your class feels the same because if its too easy then where's the joy in the game?

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5 hours ago, Raislin said:

Even if rogue is defeatable by certain classes that doesnt automatically make the skill not stupid.

1. I don't think a skill can be stupid, unless it offset the balance of the game. And to my analysis I don't see the kick in the back has anything to offer to imbalance the game in raidboss, arena, gvg, scenario. I do agree it's powerful but only in 1v1 scenario. And the devs have agreed that game is not balanced in 1v1 and it will never be. Even in 1v1 rogue is not at top of the food chain. I agree it has moved a lot above it used to be but not anywhere near the #1 position. And for rogue lagging in area damage, area stun and resist isn't not fair to have atleast one strong 1v1 skill which is not ranged nor aoe? [ JUST BECAUSE SEEKER IS AT THE BOTTOM MOST, ROGUE HAS TO BE THERE TO??? WHY NOT SUGGEST GOOD SKILLS FOR SEEKERS, AND SEEKERS UTILITY IN PVE IS FAR GREATER THAN THAT OF ROGUE'S; YOU HAVE TO ADMIT IT]

 

 

5 hours ago, Raislin said:

arguably of the mentioned classes they probably have the higher chance of actually killing priests.

2. I strongly disagree if you say a priest can't defeat a rogue given same category of gears amps and books.

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Raislin said:

As for arena scenario theres obviously the counter argument to be had that rogues partner can cc the other player in the opposing team while rogue has the main target on kick and he cannot do anything to the rogue while also having to deal with rogues partner. This goes both ways. 

3. Totally true it can go both ways but you are missing out on the point that druid and pala can never let their teammates die wherein rogue dies easily alongside the support of legion for example shaman or charmer. I do agree charmer have more stuns but what good is stuns when it can all be resisted by a bd who won't die with the help of pala shield which absorbs 10k damage.
Consider the number of survival skills druid and shaman has. If druid gives heal to his teammate and enemy target the druid he has atleast 3  more heals to save himself. On the other hand shaman gives heal to rogue and places weakness totem, heal totem and both enemy jump on shaman, do you think he will survive ??? Surely no

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Raislin said:

Obviously im biased but you cannot say you are unbiased.

4. I think you have totally misunderstood me here 


Here is the link where I have spoken for the betterment of rogues and seekers in the past. I still do feel both these charecters need a boost and are lagging behind in PvP scenario.

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Raislin said:

the stupid bs

5. Not stupid bs, even a toddler would know which class need to be attended first, and if you don't know that, then it is pala, bd, druid (nerf) locks, necro, seeker, wd (buff)

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Raislin said:

Lets not kid ourselves here.

6. Quite frankly you are the kid here who cannot take the recent buff to rogues imo.

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/4/2020 at 3:32 PM, Raislin said:

you are the one who has a few screws loose in the head

7. I'm open to further rational discussion but I'm closed to toxic, biased, one sided conversation sorry.

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16 hours ago, Raislin said:

First of all frenzy isnt useless by any means as you can use it in pve. Not all buff skills are made equal, we seekers have 12% crit 25% crit dmg skill as well which has no use what so ever in pvp but its great in pve. 

 

Every healer can save from 1hp, its not as if this is somehow exclusive to druids and paladins. And im tired of ppl bringing up paladins as if they are somehow answer to all problems. Besides the shield being strong paladins have nothing else going for them pretty much. If you take sacred shield away from them at the moment they will be the weakest class right next to seekers and probably wardens and deathknights in pvp. If you want to nerf sacred shield you have to give them something back, such as old banner for example but im sure nobody wants to see 5x5 1k+ magic damage ticks again. Sacred shield also has 40 seconds cooldown which to me seems quite long, most of the time you can get it down to 25-30 seconds at best with decent amount of cdr. So if you cant kill in that time frame too bad i quess.  As for druids they have high survivability yes but if they are busy spamming all heals on themselves they arent exactly using root and other cc on enemies or heals on everyone else are they.

 

And i highly disagree with rogues dying to all classes easily. They land somewhere neutral to hard to kill for pretty much everyone. If they are running a decent dodge build of course. Without dodge build rogues are seeker without the extra damage to autos , but then again they can use axes so +-0 i suppose.

 

 

Even if rogue is defeatable by certain classes that doesnt automatically make the skill not stupid. Theres plenty of reasons why some class can kill another and that will not invalidate an argument on its face, Priests can kill any melee class as long as they can survive a stun chain and can get the melee class to move while in elusive, even if you dont get killed by weird screen bug elusives theres not much you can do as a seeker, deathknight, paladin and probably as you mentioned rogue. So rogues getting killed by priests is by no means somehow exclusive to them, arguably of the mentioned classes they probably have the higher chance of actually killing priests.

 

As for arena scenario theres obviously the counter argument to be had that rogues partner can cc the other player in the opposing team while rogue has the main target on kick and he cannot do anything to the rogue while also having to deal with rogues partner. This goes both ways. 

 

^ Pretty much applies to gvgs and wars etc. Obviously rogue will have others helping them and being the major dps class of legion they do their job well they dont need to tank many people in most situations and if they do at least they have dodge to offset some of the damage.

 

Obviously im biased but you cannot say you are unbiased. Legion player just shines though your arguments like a lighthouse since you only bring up the stupid bs some of the Sentinel characters have and deflect when its about legion characters such as barbarian rogue and shaman. Lets not kid ourselves here.

 

 

Paladin fetters cap at 5 players, 7 or 8 with relic and theres better relics to be put on there so not like anyone uses the relic that lets the skill affect more players.And cant say ive seen many bladedancers actually level up the shield skill so at best it will block like 800-1000 damage at best. Generally speaking 1 or 2 hits at the highest level of play.

 

While we are at it lets make a similar list about mc classes while we are at it so we can all realize theres no point in really brining up other classes in this conversation besides classes that can be roughly compared to each other on both sides.

 

1. Barbarian, heavy armor, cant be controlled, always initiates group fights, no aoe but has 3 yards more range and is more tanky than bd. Has long lasting single targets stuns and aoe debuffs.

2. Shamans the tankiest caster in the game thanks to aoe debuffs and aoe heal that can be combined with their new skill which makes +10 full award characters tickle you slightly on top of cleansing random debuffs.

3. Everyones favourite warlock with assortment of cc aoe and single target both and some survivability thanks to stone body making them completely invulnerable while they get skills off cooldown.

4. Charmers with their infinite cc loops and the ability to summon highly damaging minions that dont even die easily anymore thanks to relatively recent updates and they can also heal themselves or others. Can also be incredibly tanky thanks to block increasing buff and the ability to wear heavy armor and shields.

 

How about you fix some of that please(jokes), but really this is why i wanted to keep the topic mainly on compable classes as bringing other classes in the mix just makes things messy.

 

 

When you use some skills like Berserk power (Barbarian) and Frenzy (Rogue) and it says every in-coming damage has been increase by some certain % and u will like to use it? A Blade dancer can kill those classes faster with 160% more Common hit damage. So the blade dancers can hit those 50% Resilience Barb or rouge like 1.5k+ damage easily and a Paladin can provide him shield 24/7. I have huge doubt among all the elf classes shield mechanism. A Bd can use his shield skill + paladins shield + priest shield on himself which can overlap and stack but when a sham use pull shield on some Rogue and a necro use the shield on that particular rogue same time , the sham shield gets removed and why they doesnt gets stacked? It's a kind of Joking mechanism and one sided game for Elfs.

 

Barbarian isn't tanky anymore in arena/wars and they have Retribution weakness which can clear the stone skin and makes easy to die faster. A 10k HP paladin can give 12.5k HP shield to him and his partner and the cd is Very low like 25-30 seconds can re-use it 24/7 when the shield is broken where as Barbarians last wish skill is 90 seconds cd and that skill doesn't mingle with guild cd or  by the cd enchant in gears. I wish paladins shield must have cd like 90 seconds or they should re-work it like same as guild patron skill which absorbs 3-4k damage.

 

A shaman or a charmer can't instant save a mc char from dying where as paladins and druid just need to use 1skill and a heal and they survive with full hp in few seconds which is more broken. Druids can also support the whole party with heal and the shaman heal totems can also be counter by many elf char like paladins shield hit and the Templars backwards hit which pull 3yard with 100% stun chance for 4 seconds + 250% auto hit damage. Elf each expert skill always have 3-4 advantages which sounds more unfair.

 

I do also wish they will bring the rogues Old Reflex skill which makes the class more balanced compared to the all elf classes. Even a bd can kill all the elf classes alone very easily and they have 2x best resist skill with 2x best damage buff with several number of control skills. Counter attack skill is more broken skill and rogues definitely need the old reflex skill back.

 

Most of the warlock users playing elfs classes now or they just quit the game due to the un-fairness and the comparison of the elfs op skills

 

Charmers gets nerf much and they are being useless for wars. They already nerf the aoe combo stun (knowledge of the dead man + other worlds fire) . So charmers can't control any elf crowd in war and the bird heal is being useless which doesn't give a complete heal because they already die by elfs aoe damage or 2 hit by any elf class. Templars are outstanding for wars with number of crowd control skills and the special survivable skills which are most broken compared to charmers.

 

 

So please bring the balance for each mc classes or nerf each elf classes who have  op skills.

Edited by Lwn
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2 hours ago, Numbawun said:

You have a lot to say about a lot of classes but honestly have you been on the other end of the scale? I could pin point every last thing you said here that really doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense but as you read this you'll know what I'm referring to.

 

I hear this a lot from both sides of the fence but we all need to remember that every class is meant to be unique and server a purpose. Sometimes changing the setup you run or even changing around party members can change the fight to benefit you just keep that in mind when reading this.

 

Paladins are a joke right now, not just because of the shield but its because you can stack the shield on top of of a blade dancer that's got max resistance buff plus a shield again, even if that blade dancers shield is 800/1000 that on top of a 100% shield from a paladin keep in mind if said paladin has 10k hp we are talking 10k shield +1k 11k shield + 3 resistance buffs + resistance stats + rush which is also 100% resisted while casting and not to mention resistance pots and scrolls. Now let me ask you this, find me a warlock that can deal with that? find me anyone that can deal with that? Only people that can have shit loads of books, full greatness and generally are shamans that can face tank it (shamans with distortion book). That being said how does a rogue deal with a paladin bd combo in arena? really isn't the easiest thing to deal with that's for sure.

 

gvg and war situations well honestly doesn't it now come down to what side has the most level 10 guilds with unity to just unity to flag and win? really i only see the use of rogues for dungeons and arena that's it really Kick in the back makes no difference in gvg/war situations.

 

I wont disagree kick in the back is annoying to handle but honestly its not that hard, bds dont need to worry ty resistance priests I'm pretty sure that have redemption + an aoe heal not to mention mages have a resistance skill aswell so honestly can you say kick in the back is hard to deal with for elf? or is it hard to deal with for mc considering only 2 classes have a single resistance one time buff being barbarian and shaman, shaman being able to cast on anyone.

 

Charmers well honestly I hate them I wouldn't be upset if they deleted the class from the game and remade something else, didn't like playing it, don't like vsing it and honestly dont enjoy playing with it in arena. 

 

Current classes that need attention for the Arena aspect of the game weather its nerfs or buffs consist of this list (This is my personal opinion)

Warlocks

Blade dancers

Paladins

Druids

Now these can honestly be fixed with a simple mechanical change of the resistance stat and how it works but honestly from someone's point of view, someone's personal experience against a class in small or large scale classes we all ♥♥♥♥♥ about other classes being stronger than others, I'm a warlock main and have been for yonks and honestly its not easy being a warlock and I hope your class feels the same because if its too easy then where's the joy in the game?

 

Regardless of what exists for paladins to put sacred shield on if they lose it what do they get in exchange. Because if you didnt notice all of their skills are kinda terrible besides foj. Banner does 100 damage per tick on +10 players when theres 2-3 of them in range. Illumination does maybe 1k damage every 6-8 seconds and thats fully awarded magic paladin. If you go physical for pvp you are wasting your money and your time since repellant shield just pushes people away from you making it harder to hit them and it doesnt even do good damage and you basically turn half of your skills useless thanks to having extremely low magic damage. Thanks to paladin prayer and sun seal/repellant combo you can kind of sustain yourself and maybe heal someone once a minute thanks to prayer being a targetable skill, bit of course it has the downside of having a year long cooldown for some reason. What im telling you is that paladin wont get changed in anyway in the near future thanks to them being completely useless if you take sacred shield from them regardless of what ever that shield might make the other classes do.

 

I mained legion classes for a long time so not like i havent fought bds and whatever else nonsense they came up with at the time. I played my lock through the initial resistance era where it was still somewhat reasonable. I think resistance as a stat is completely fine in concept at least but castle scrolls for example dont really need to exist. Not really sure why any classes beyond maybe warden and mage got skills with resistance properties. They make no sense on bds and barbarians at all but whatever i quess not like they are going to get redone anymore since after rogues reflex change they have never really reworked a expert skill completely besides maybe barbarians last wish but thats mostly because it wasnt working at all so something had to be done about it. 

 

As for wars often it does come down to unitys and such but ive been doing a good 50k-70k damage per flag in legion and cara the last few wars completely alone just walking from our towns to legion flags and obviously stealthing in the camps. Sometimes you hit once and get killed, sometimes you can sit there for a good 10 seconds without anyone noticing. Its all about luck essentially. Rogues have been doing the same thing for a long time and their contribution to the total damage on flags shouldnt be underestimated.

 

Warlocks are fine as they are atm. Besides mages giving away ennoble bds are the only ones that can deal with the aoe silences and dark circles with ease. Maybe paladin can jump over them with harad call or something but thats just asking to get killed. Bladedancers resist skill should probably be changed to do something completely different but the rush resistance almost needs to stay as besides that they dont have any effective gap closers. As i said before you simply cannot nerf paladins shield before something else gets buffed otherwise they are just stationary pez dispenser giving out small heals and doing jack all besides that. As for what id change about druids i have no idea honestly. Besides just refusing to die they seem to not do much at all. the roots are annoying but you can always buff with resistance to avoid some of that.

 

I actually dont get why people focus so hard on bd of all classes for some reason. I see rangers as much bigger of a problem myself. But i quess thats how it is when half the rangers in your guild are +10 awarded and fully booked chars.

 

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2 hours ago, Raislin said:

Warlocks are fine as they are atm. Besides mages giving away ennoble bds are the only ones that can deal with the aoe silences and dark circles with ease. Maybe paladin can jump over them with harad call or something but thats just asking to get killed. Bladedancers resist skill should probably be changed to do something completely different but the rush resistance almost needs to stay as besides that they dont have any effective gap closers. As i said before you simply cannot nerf paladins shield before something else gets buffed otherwise they are just stationary pez dispenser giving out small heals and doing jack all besides that. As for what id change about druids i have no idea honestly. Besides just refusing to die they seem to not do much at all. the roots are annoying but you can always buff with resistance to avoid some of that.

Yeah warlocks are in a fine state of the game when you put 30/40 warlocks in one place where the line of survival is irrelevant and spamming all the AoE/CC skills you have to defend a flag/castle or even at raid bosses but warlocks are complete garbage in Arena. I personally resorted to becoming one of few if not the strongest PvE warlock for Raid bosses and dungeons. Tho this is a tad off topic sorry.

 

Nerfing Kick in the back after playing against it in arena really there's ways to deal with it man it doesn't need nerfing if anything it'll give some of those uh "easier" classes on elf a bit of a challenge I think man. Rogues and Seekers are bottom tier for everything else so soon I expect a little buff or something rather for Seekers aswell but rogues dont need changing at this point. Just find another way to deal with that annoying rogue.

 

2 hours ago, Raislin said:

Regardless of what exists for paladins to put sacred shield on if they lose it what do they get in exchange. Because if you didnt notice all of their skills are kinda terrible besides foj. Banner does 100 damage per tick on +10 players when theres 2-3 of them in range. Illumination does maybe 1k damage every 6-8 seconds and thats fully awarded magic paladin.

Look I dont disagree here, if they nerf the shield give em something back I get it. I feel the same way. People cried for DK curse to be "nerfed?" I guess now it doesnt work on flag n stuff yadda yadda but instead of making the only option magic power for paladins or phys why dont people find a way to make paladin more tank instead of a support running around throwing shields and heals on everyone. I'm sure we can come up with a way to make it better.

 

But again my opinion stands Rogues don't need tweaking at the moment 😛 There's always a way

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9 hours ago, Lwn said:

Most of the warlock users playing elfs classes now or they just quit the game due to the un-fair and the comparison of the elfs op skills

So true

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11 hours ago, Raislin said:

 

Regardless of what exists for paladins to put sacred shield on if they lose it what do they get in exchange. Because if you didnt notice all of their skills are kinda terrible besides foj. Banner does 100 damage per tick on +10 players when theres 2-3 of them in range. Illumination does maybe 1k damage every 6-8 seconds and thats fully awarded magic paladin. If you go physical for pvp you are wasting your money and your time since repellant shield just pushes people away from you making it harder to hit them and it doesnt even do good damage and you basically turn half of your skills useless thanks to having extremely low magic damage. Thanks to paladin prayer and sun seal/repellant combo you can kind of sustain yourself and maybe heal someone once a minute thanks to prayer being a targetable skill, bit of course it has the downside of having a year long cooldown for some reason. What im telling you is that paladin wont get changed in anyway in the near future thanks to them being completely useless if you take sacred shield from them regardless of what ever that shield might make the other classes do.

 

I mained legion classes for a long time so not like i havent fought bds and whatever else nonsense they came up with at the time. I played my lock through the initial resistance era where it was still somewhat reasonable. I think resistance as a stat is completely fine in concept at least but castle scrolls for example dont really need to exist. Not really sure why any classes beyond maybe warden and mage got skills with resistance properties. They make no sense on bds and barbarians at all but whatever i quess not like they are going to get redone anymore since after rogues reflex change they have never really reworked a expert skill completely besides maybe barbarians last wish but thats mostly because it wasnt working at all so something had to be done about it. 

 

As for wars often it does come down to unitys and such but ive been doing a good 50k-70k damage per flag in legion and cara the last few wars completely alone just walking from our towns to legion flags and obviously stealthing in the camps. Sometimes you hit once and get killed, sometimes you can sit there for a good 10 seconds without anyone noticing. Its all about luck essentially. Rogues have been doing the same thing for a long time and their contribution to the total damage on flags shouldnt be underestimated.

 

Warlocks are fine as they are atm. Besides mages giving away ennoble bds are the only ones that can deal with the aoe silences and dark circles with ease. Maybe paladin can jump over them with harad call or something but thats just asking to get killed. Bladedancers resist skill should probably be changed to do something completely different but the rush resistance almost needs to stay as besides that they dont have any effective gap closers. As i said before you simply cannot nerf paladins shield before something else gets buffed otherwise they are just stationary pez dispenser giving out small heals and doing jack all besides that. As for what id change about druids i have no idea honestly. Besides just refusing to die they seem to not do much at all. the roots are annoying but you can always buff with resistance to avoid some of that.

 

I actually dont get why people focus so hard on bd of all classes for some reason. I see rangers as much bigger of a problem myself. But i quess thats how it is when half the rangers in your guild are +10 awarded and fully booked chars.

 

Paladins never lvl up any magical damage skill , that's why u see low damage on enemies. They all just follow the same build 4/4 sacred shield , 4/4 prayer etc. Paladins shield strike is same as Barb shield strike and no paladins puts the points on those and it stuns longer.

 

Paladins shield can be re-worked like guild patron shield which absorbs 3-4k damage and if u compare a magical damage dk they sacrifice physical dmg skill for only 2 magical damage expert skills. It's a same thing that you need to sacrifice some skills depends on your build.

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2 hours ago, Lwn said:

Paladins never lvl up any magical damage skill

A paladin who doesn't want to be useless/shieldbot does. 

 

16 hours ago, Lwn said:

A 10k HP paladin can give 12.5k HP shield to him and his partner and the cd is Very low like 25-30 seconds can re-use it 24/7 when the shield is broken where as Barbarians last wish skill is 90 seconds cd and that skill doesn't mingle with guild cd or  by the cd enchant in gears

 

Paladin shield is based on MAX BASE HP (at best 6-7k, buffs dont apply), and has no def, practically meaning people hit full on it, and it goes down pretty quick versus reasonable amplified people. CD is 40 seconds base or around 30 if you lose pene/mreg on rings, accuracy on helm and resil belt since you have to go cdr belt, ergo this sentence of yours is utter bs. You people keep bringing up paladins for a shield, not realizing they practically have NOTHING else in their arsenal left, and this shield is but a bandaid fix to their banner nerfs.

2 hours ago, Lwn said:

Paladins shield can be re-worked like guild patron shield which absorbs 3-4k damage

 

So basically like how it is but minus some HP? lol Then make the shield take into consideration the users resilience/defs, give people a good reason to whine 

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15 hours ago, Hourai said:

A paladin who doesn't want to be useless/shieldbot does. 

 

 

Paladin shield is based on MAX BASE HP (at best 6-7k, buffs dont apply), and has no def, practically meaning people hit full on it, and it goes down pretty quick versus reasonable amplified people. CD is 40 seconds base or around 30 if you lose pene/mreg on rings, accuracy on helm and resil belt since you have to go cdr belt, ergo this sentence of yours is utter bs. You people keep bringing up paladins for a shield, not realizing they practically have NOTHING else in their arsenal left, and this shield is but a bandaid fix to their banner nerfs.

 

So basically like how it is but minus some HP? lol Then make the shield take into consideration the users resilience/defs, give people a good reason to whine 

Paladins already have 2x heal with a combo heal on expert skill and they don't need a op shield which absorbs 4dd skills and several auto hits , even if the paladins HP had been reduced they can shield back fast and regain the full hp by those heal skills. No other mc classes have a shield like this. Even necros and priest skill are same which absorbs damage depends the points that we spend . Banner damage  really isn't a nerf , they just changed from 4 yards to 3 yards.

 

I wish shamans gets a shield like this hope they rework that Ancestors hand skill back same like paladins shield.

 

Anyways hope rogues get back the old Reflex skill and they can nerf kick in the back skill instead of it. That will be a good balancing of skills for rogues compared to the sentinels.

Edited by Lwn
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