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Gladiator

Why nerfing Paladin in this way is a bad idea...

Was the nerfing Fetters overkill?  

26 members have voted

  1. 1. Was the nerfing Fetters overkill?

    • Yes, they shouldn't touch Fetters
    • Yes, but Fetters was OP, the nerf was just too much, your ideas are better.
    • Yes, Pala stuns were fine, Pala damage was OP.
    • No, maybe the new skill gives 50% extra HP?
    • Nah, deserved. Don't mind me, I didn't read anything anyway.
    • RIP Paladins


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15 minutes ago, GalaxyRekt said:

Hey, you can still use fetters on mobs:not_okay:

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

Too many people are missing the point, or just purposely acting dumb.

I don't who brought up 1v1, all I mentioned was Arena and wars. So I'll spare myself the time replying to people who came here just to miss the point and have no real argument.

Now that's funny, who are you to say that? Is that real balance if a class like necro and priest is completely useless in PvP? And then you wonder why there are few Priests and Necros and why there is overpopulation for some classes.

No logic whatsoever.

No my dear, if a class is weak in Arena/PvP then it needs a buff in Arena/PvP, that's how the game works.

Even if we suppose you're right. What should I do when Paladin was a good PvP class, and built my character for years for PvP, and now it's bad in PvP, what should I do? See, that's not good for the game.

 

Fetter was always too op? I bet you didn't read what I said, or can't even think before writing. Fetters was there since the beginning of Paladin, we're talking about 6 years, the skill has always been this way. Were you saying it was op before Experts came out? No. You're saying it's op now because now Palas have new stuff that make him op. Banner/jump. You said it yourself, it's expert skills that made Pala op.

 

My whole point was this big fetter nerf was unnecessary for reasons I mentioned, didn't say that Paladin didn't need any nerf.

Show me other classes basic skills that got nerfed that much, when was the last time that happened? Probably before Experts came out. I don't see how anyone can justify nerfing a basic skill that much when there are newly added/fixed experts that could be rather nerfed.

 

And good luck using fetters to prevent kiting, remember everyone can still use their control during fetter so they will be able to keep kiting. Let's see how you make it useful.

You saying arena is all about stuns. If you keep your opponent stunned to death,then class is good for you, if one stun is half nerfed then you saying oh i cant beat other class in arena. Is that all what u mean by arena. 

Then im sad u didnt find another creative ways of using your class in arena

 

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Good job arguing against the argument that I never made!

I didn't say stuns is everything in Arena, it's definitely a big part of it though.

But for Paladin, it doesn't have much without its control. Unlike Deathknights and Barbs for example who have stronger defense. Paladin has weak defensive abilities and thats why it was important to have more control (Now less).

Look, all I'm saying is that I know Paladin might have needed a nerf, but that was the wrong way to do it, and no one still could justify this nerf replying to the 3 points I made in my main post, especially the first 2 points.

 

Because that's what they did right now:

WhatsApp Image 2018-09-09 at 18.10.04.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

Good job arguing against the argument that I never made!

I didn't say stuns is everything in Arena, it's definitely a big part of it though.

But for Paladin, it doesn't have much without its control. Unlike Deathknights and Barbs for example who have stronger defense. Paladin has weak defensive abilities and thats why it was important to have more control (Now less).

Look, all I'm saying is that I know Paladin might have needed a nerf, but that was the wrong way to do it, and no one still could justify this nerf replying to the 3 points I made in my main post, especially the first 2 points.

 

Because that's what they did right now:

WhatsApp Image 2018-09-09 at 18.10.04.jpeg

Look, in PvE paladin stays "almost" the same.

On PvP., he isn't supposed to do 1v1 battles, in 2x2 when you use fetters  your teammate can stun so there is no difference.

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12 minutes ago, GalaxyRekt said:

Look, in PvE paladin stays "almost" the same.

On PvP., he isn't supposed to do 1v1 battles, in 2x2 when you use fetters  your teammate can stun so there is no difference.

Still doesn't explain why they had to nerf Fetters in particular.

Look at the last 2 skill fixes in the main post, they all involved buffs for Paladin, and especially buffs for Experts, they should at least consider those skills that were buffed that might have led to Paladins becoming overpowered. Because fetters is 6 years old, and I don't see why NOW that it became op.

Oh no problem in PvE, didn't mention it at all.

Edited by Gladiator

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16 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

Still doesn't explain why they had to nerf Fetters in particular.

Look at the last 2 skill fixes in the main post, they all involved buffs for Paladin, and especially buffs for Experts, they should at least consider those skills that were buffed that might have led to Paladins becoming overpowered. Because fetters is 6 years old, and I don't see why NOW that it became op.

I guess in wars... idk. I hope after the update MC side can also win the war.

 

I mean, I hope they nerfed fetters so hard because it was OP at wars. If nothing changes then this nerf was unnecessary.

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12 hours ago, subhojeet said:

I see all cry only because fetter nerf. Because it was too op for make stun circle in 1 vs 1.

They don't worry about banner. Even they don't care about new skill.

A tank class having 2 healing skill isn't too op?

But who cares.

Only Because pala can't win 1 vs 1 like before they crying for fetter. 

 

A tank class with 3 stun skill, 3 heal skill, 3 aoe dmg skill, 1 shield, 1 def buff etc what u need more?

fetter still stop enemy at a place similar to stun. They just gave ability to use skill that time. 

 

Really you guys can make toooo much drama for a stun skill.:come_on:

 

 

Excuse me?... Op?    Tank?:panda8:

 

what is the point in having 2 healing skill if in pvp you almost never have the chance to use them due to the amount of stun that some char has?

 

and if in the case of being able to use it would not help much, it would only make death longer:seriouspumpkin:

 

In PVE.. which tank? xD palas can do that? :fuck_that:(sarcasm)

I do not know any paladin that could have tanked alone, a strong boss, without using pot.:i_am_determined1:

 

in any case, the fetters was the only basic skill that helped the paladin to escape from enemies of the opposite faction (casters)

 

wait...oh great now can not escape :are_you_fucking_kidding_me:

...

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9 minutes ago, GalaxyRekt said:

I mean, I hope they nerfed fetters so hard because it was OP at wars. If nothing changes then this nerf was unnecessary.

I addressed the point that this fix could be for wars. And all I can say is that it's not fun for Paladins like me who never actually participated in wars because of its timing, so I hope they didn't really nerf it because of wars, because now it's useless in Arena too which is my main interest.

They definitely could have made a smarter fix if wars was their only concerns.

And Mages are a bigger danger in Wars than Paladins, so I don't know how that makes sense to give mages more AoE damage.

Also looking at the results of the last war, 3 wins for MC, 3 wins for elves, 1 draw in all 7 servers. No clear overpower because of the paladins Fetter. The problem was clearly overpopulation, even if we count the AoE control of both sides, we'd probably get around the same amount of control in seconds for both sides.

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Imagine if MCs had 50 Warlocks, and were winning all wars, would it make sense to remove stun from Dark Circle? Warlocks are gonna become very weak in Arena. So no, it doesn't make any sense.

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4 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

Imagine if MCs had 50 Warlocks, and were winning all wars, would it make sense to remove stun from Dark Circle? Warlocks are gonna become very weak in Arena. So no, it doesn't make any sense.

 

Well, dark circle right now stuns only. Does not really Immobilize and Mute. But I got your point. 

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29 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

Imagine if MCs had 50 Warlocks, and were winning all wars, would it make sense to remove stun from Dark Circle? Warlocks are gonna become very weak in Arena. So no, it doesn't make any sense.

Oh then remove stun from lock and make then tank and give heal skills.

Stun for lock totally justifying in lack of strong def and lack of heal ability

 

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2 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Good job arguing against the argument that I never made!

I didn't say stuns is everything in Arena, it's definitely a big part of it though.

But for Paladin, it doesn't have much without its control. Unlike Deathknights and Barbs for example who have stronger defense. Paladin has weak defensive abilities and thats why it was important to have more control (Now less).

Look, all I'm saying is that I know Paladin might have needed a nerf, but that was the wrong way to do it, and no one still could justify this nerf replying to the 3 points I made in my main post, especially the first 2 points.

 

Because that's what they did right now:

WhatsApp Image 2018-09-09 at 18.10.04.jpeg

Lol i can easily solo lab with pala and mage

Paladin have shield make pala block parry build how can u say pala is weak defnsive palas defence is much better then bd.

And if you talking about stone skin of barb then its useless in arena as ppl using damage reflect that eats up stone skin

 Maximize harad shield skill of pala u will get strong defence. Unlike pala barb cant heal like them

Palas one  expert skill also mutli stun

How can you say pala weak defence

  And about dk they too have balanced stuns only thing that op about dk was their secreat reserve that too get huge nerf.

And if u want compare barb and pala then give barbs tooo 2-3 heal skills and aoe damages skil

Edited by aks

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47 minutes ago, aks said:

Lol i can easily solo lab with pala and mage

Paladin have shield make pala block parry build how can u say pala is weak defnsive palas defence is much better then bd.

And if you talking about stone skin of barb then its useless in arena as ppl using damage reflect that eats up stone skin

 Maximize harad shield skill of pala u will get strong defence. Unlike pala barb cant heal like them

Palas one  expert skill also mutli stun

How can you say pala weak defence

  And about dk they too have balanced stuns only thing that op about dk was their secreat reserve that too get huge nerf.

And if u want compare barb and pala then give barbs tooo 2-3 heal skills and aoe damages skil

Let me just stop you there. You talk too much without analyzing just spouting nonsense I cannot help but reply ...

firstly you say paladins Op cause of heal skills ? This is where its pretty clear u have not explored the areas of paladins yet ..

Take Full phys Mace pala ... What you get from heal skill ? 300 hp ? Long cooldown ? Please ... Ow want more ? Shield bash huh ? Just note how difficult it is to actually use seal and shield bash (repellent strike) remove fetters and ? No hope moment you hit seal they gonna stun you until seal off.

taking magic paladins into consideration...

Sure they heal very well ! Almost as good as a priest (cooldown ? Yeah nice healer) but guess what ? No seal + shield bash ?

to top it up ... Very weak defense.

what are u trying to justify ? Paladins heal are weak boost in general except for shield bash that works like barbs combat fury.

1 hour ago, aks said:

Oh then remove stun from lock and make then tank and give heal skills.

Stun for lock totally justifying in lack of strong def and lack of heal ability

 

ah yes doesn't it justifies paladins weak def and weak heal ? Ofc they need some sort of control skills. Now before u go pve ... Pala solo any boss ? Phys pala fail seal and can't depend on heavenly light.

magic pala ? Sure good heal with lifesteal ... Cooldowns ? Def ? Hp ? Weak main based auto attack?. This is not on topic but next time kindly before spouting such absurd nonsense... Think twice ..

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In my opinion ...

The Nerf on Paladins Fetters of Justice by which they remove silence is un reasonable. Just as Gladiator said previously Fetters of Justice has been around for a long time... Just after the introduction of expert skills people start to complain ... Clearly blames does not go to fetters of justice. Also in Warspear... Every tank must have a stun or silence skill for countering magic casters ... Tank op vs damagers but tank weak against spell casters ... In order to balance and give tankers a chance in pvp etc. They have a basic stun skill. Removing Silence from Fetters of Justice disables a Paladin to combat effectively in terms of pvp. It shouldn't be taken from them as it is their rightful skill from the start. As I said especially for a magic paladin user fetter is the main silence skill as call cannot be relied on Harads Call 1-2 secs stun with chance to fail ?. To think the pathetic situation where a Paladin uses fetter only to be countered back with an even longer stun/disable skill. Nerf the expert skills would be understandable but as I said earlier it is unreasonable to remove silence from Fetter. Fetters of Justice should be as it is ... This is speaking in terms of pvp where paladins shine. Just like Gladiators Graph ... The Nerf is just too strong to the point of crippling paladins!

Edited by SageofWarspear
incorrect use of wordings

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1 hour ago, aks said:

Lol i can easily solo lab with pala and mage

Paladin have shield make pala block parry build how can u say pala is weak defnsive palas defence is much better then bd.

And if you talking about stone skin of barb then its useless in arena as ppl using damage reflect that eats up stone skin

 Maximize harad shield skill of pala u will get strong defence. Unlike pala barb cant heal like them

Palas one  expert skill also mutli stun

How can you say pala weak defence

  And about dk they too have balanced stuns only thing that op about dk was their secreat reserve that too get huge nerf.

And if u want compare barb and pala then give barbs tooo 2-3 heal skills and aoe damages skil

Lab is old news, nothing to be proud of, anyone can do that nowadays.

I said that Paladin lacks defensive abilities when compared to other tanks like DK and Barb, didn't mention BD's defense being better, and as far as I know, all other tanks can use shield, nothing special about Pala.

And my argument that it was ok to have less defensive abilities since we have better control, it covers up. But with this nerf, we do not really have better control anymore, and still not better defensive abilites, I don't see how anyone would disagree with that.

If you wanna count that we have more heal, then you have to even reduce the stuns since we sacrifice shield strike stun for 2h magic builds, and since only with 2h, the heal is really noticeable.

Don't forget the fact that Paladin has the lowest HP out of all tanks, and the reason for that is that we heal.

 

So you're judging Paladin based on all experts maxed together? you say that I should max Sacred Shield, and then you talk about Harad Call's AoE stun, if I have both maxed then I lose a lot of damage from banner. If I don't max Harad Call, the stun is only a 70% chance and for 3 targets max, you shouldn't complain about that even if it's maxed, it's only 2 seconds stuns.

And again, if you wanna keep mentioning that Paladin still have 2 stun experts, you need to forget about heal because it's barely 300-350, and both Barb and DK heal more than that in one way or the other. 

 

So yes, Paladin has the least defensive abilites amonst all shield tanks, but it was no problem since we could protect ourselves with Fetters.

And we can heal yes, but if we wanna max heal then that's 1 less stun leaving us with only 1 AoE 2 second stun, with low total damage output in long fights. (a lot of physical damage lost)

Sadly, Paladin doesn't really have high heals+shield skill AND too much stuns, it's either this or that.

 

2 hours ago, aks said:

And if u want compare barb and pala then give barbs tooo 2-3 heal skills and aoe damages skil

Alright I agree! But also give Pala resist skill and increase the time of shield strike stun and make harad Call 7 yard jump! Oh and AoE damage reduction as well *hi*

This is the dumbest thing I've read in a while.

 

This will be my last reply to you since you have no idea what you're talking about, and any further discussion with you is just a waste of my time, you clearly don't have much game sense, sorry to break it down to you.

 

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Pala didnt even need a single nerf, i mean they kinda buffed DK and barb with new expert lol

 

There were not many good palas on EU now it will be dead class. @Lyzois rip your project ;.;.;.;

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46 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

 

Lab is old news, nothing to be proud of, anyone can do that nowadays.

I said that Paladin lacks defensive abilities when compared to other tanks like DK and Barb, didn't mention BD's defense being better, and as far as I know, all other tanks can use shield, nothing special about Pala.

And my argument that it was ok to have less defensive abilities since we have better control, it covers up. But with this nerf, we do not really have better control anymore, and still not better defensive abilites, I don't see how anyone would disagree with that.

If you wanna count that we have more heal, then you have to even reduce the stuns since we sacrifice shield strike stun for 2h magic builds, and since only with 2h, the heal is really noticeable.

Don't forget the fact that Paladin has the lowest HP out of all tanks, and the reason for that is that we heal.

 

So you're judging Paladin based on all experts maxed together? you say that I should max Sacred Shield, and then you talk about Harad Call's AoE stun, if I have both maxed then I lose a lot of damage from banner. If I don't max Harad Call, the stun is only a 70% chance and for 3 targets max, you shouldn't complain about that even if it's maxed, it's only 2 seconds stuns.

And again, if you wanna keep mentioning that Paladin still have 2 stun experts, you need to forget about heal because it's barely 300-350, and both Barb and DK heal more than that in one way or the other. 

 

So yes, Paladin has the least defensive abilites amonst all shield tanks, but it was no problem since we could protect ourselves with Fetters.

And we can heal yes, but if we wanna max heal then that's 1 less stun leaving us with only 1 AoE 2 second stun, with low total damage output in long fights. (a lot of physical damage lost)

Sadly, Paladin doesn't really have high heals+shield skill AND too much stuns, it's either this or that.

 

Alright I agree! But also give Pala resist skill and increase the time of shield strike stun and make harad Call 7 yard jump! Oh and AoE damage reduction as well *hi*

This is the dumbest thing I've read in a while.

 

This will be my last reply to you since you have no idea what you're talking about, and any further discussion with you is just a waste of my time, you clearly don't have much game sense, sorry to break it down to you.

 

And now u dont have control? Common man pala have so many heal skill and again getting new skill

How many heal skills barn have?

U seen any barb critical hit 1k+ pala can how many aoe stuns barb and dk have? Non how many control skill barb and dk have? Non

Pala still have fether high heal unlike any other tank. And common man pala is more heal based tank

How many aoe dmage skills barbs dk have? And yet pala have so many

Dk has sercreat reserve that work once in 120 sec that too nerfed now.

Cant u see basic concept of pala which is heal based. 

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Something needed to be done about pala that im sure of, seen a +8 pala one cycle full reward bds barbs and dks. Not sure if it was the right decision to nerf foj, but then again its aigrind. I'm sure they have a grand plan in mind.:panda7:

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31 minutes ago, Reivenorik said:

Friends, please be patient.
We carry out some tests on which we will make changes.
What is presented in the announcement is not the final version of the change in abilities. :smoke:

 

Thanks for clarifying, batman! 😎

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I really put the 50% HP on the poll randomly. :biggrin:

 

Anyway, I'll give my thoughts on the new skill.

Not sure if the numbers of the test server are the real ones, if they are, I'd say the situation is not as bad.

50% is pretty nice, even though it doesn't count other buffs and craft gears, it makes perfect sense, it would be crazy healing 3-4k or more.

It definitely involves a new way to play Paladin (for me at least), it's not the old stunning machine with high damage anymore, it's more supportive than ever, will have to see how that plays out in high level arena fights, will be hard to get used to this new role.

To be honest, I'd still personally take a weaker version of this skill with a nerfed Fetter in a different way than just removing the silence, rather than a powerful heal with a decent cooldown, but low area control.

Edited by Gladiator

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5 hours ago, Reivenorik said:

Friends, please be patient.
We carry out some tests on which we will make changes.
What is presented in the announcement is not the final version of the change in abilities. :smoke:

Thank you. 

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So I guess pala isn't gonna RIP now.

In fact the new skill is actually very good with instant 50% health recovery and max hp increase by 50% too

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Foj was never a stun. It's a combination of: Root, Silence, and Debuff. If it were a stun, you'll see the halo ring around. I get it, it still can stop mobs moving. However, it's not a stun skill. It's a combination skill. Now the skill will be like mage chain skill except it just roots them in place. What makes these palas disappointed, is that this skill don't silence anymore(mainly for arena palas). The skill is clutch for palas in pt for pve and pvp.

 

PvP:

1.) The duration of the skill makes it for pala to make a come back if they where stun first. The other stun will delay the use of other expert skill. So after 3sec of stun, pala with be stun, silence, Fear, blind, scatter or sleep. 

2.) If pala use foj first against stunners including elf side. They still can get can pushed away, sleep or stun.

PvE:

1.) DGs are getting harder, Mobs have their own skills, and we know bosses too. Some DGs like BG have mobs that blinds and scattered the most aggro player or tank. Using foj so you can walk through and go to another set of mobs is very helpful to prevent to mob skills.

2.) Killing Op bosses. We all know bosses like Engineer n Elm have crazy skills. Foj is very helpful. I know, I know, not everyone raid them bosses.

 

As an old pala player, I can really understand the pain. I'm just adding a comment here because I know how stupid the nerf is. In addition, my foj was at 3/5 so can max other expert skills for pve. 3/5 works fair on bosses for pve. I don't understand why MC and FS saying here on forum that is should be nerf while in game charmers and locks saying they gonna troll palas after update. I have an mc but I'm more active on elf because i get more help. I would love to have a charmer to own every class in this game but he's stuck on lvl 11 with no help and my rogue cant do dg without cl completion. 

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