Chieftain changes

[Salazam 476]

3 horas atrás, Lilweasel disse:

especially if the idea is to leave the rugged hide at 25%.. 

I made some specific changes to this specific skill some time ago.

Speaking of mages, they can make a good front line even without damage reduction, (in a gvg the barrier is not that strong)

[SaltyCoffe 67]

I don't even know why you guys keep comparing chief dmg reduction ( or other classes dmg reduction ) to seeker .......

 

Chief is a multi-situational class with many skills that can adapt and help the class overall  :

• PVE , i'm not sure but as what i've seen in past videos, it's a normal class that deals the normal amount of dmg

                    ( PVE not needed for this discussion but it was made just to show the overall class features )

• PVP(small fights) , really strong even with normal gear+ normal buffs 
  • Increases strength a lot with orci scroll
    • Even more with orci book ( really super-rare occasion but some have it )

 

• GVG , really strong aoe while having resist skill same as mage , so it can go in and out of mass fights ( not everytime but usually it's this way ) , so    it can be really helpful to the team ecc...

 

How after all of this compare the class to seeker L_L

 

Seeker only strength is , ( After SPENDING 100m+ gold and a lot of time for talents+greatness ) , capability of doing super high dmg to casters ( which is what the class aims at ) , and now sometimes dealing high dmg to more tanky classes ( i already made a post about it, needing a nerf )

 

BUT, remember that this applies to few situations ONLY in arena, class is useless in gvg, even if 100% dmg reduction, it won't make you survive 1 stun in that big fights

you would need somehow to resist many stuns from your resist% alone , while having healing buffs ( which are reduced ) permanently under you, but ( apart from bm tree ) other healing classes helps the real carry of gvg, which is mage ; because even under 50/60% resist , if 1 stun goes on you under all those AOE+ other targets , you will die 100%

 

Ty for reading !

 

[Theweasel 161]

3 hours ago, SaltyCoffe said:

I don't even know why you guys keep comparing chief dmg reduction ( or other classes dmg reduction ) to seeker .......

 

Chief is a multi-situational class with many skills that can adapt and help the class overall  :

• PVE , i'm not sure but as what i've seen in past videos, it's a normal class that deals the normal amount of dmg

                    ( PVE not needed for this discussion but it was made just to show the overall class features )

• PVP(small fights) , really strong even with normal gear+ normal buffs 
  • Increases strength a lot with orci scroll
    • Even more with orci book ( really super-rare occasion but some have it )

 

• GVG , really strong aoe while having resist skill same as mage , so it can go in and out of mass fights ( not everytime but usually it's this way ) , so    it can be really helpful to the team ecc...

 

How after all of this compare the class to seeker L_L

 

Seeker only strength is , ( After SPENDING 100m+ gold and a lot of time for talents+greatness ) , capability of doing super high dmg to casters ( which is what the class aims at ) , and now sometimes dealing high dmg to more tanky classes ( i already made a post about it, needing a nerf )

 

BUT, remember that this applies to few situations ONLY in arena, class is useless in gvg, even if 100% dmg reduction, it won't make you survive 1 stun in that big fights

you would need somehow to resist many stuns from your resist% alone , while having healing buffs ( which are reduced ) permanently under you, but ( apart from bm tree ) other healing classes helps the real carry of gvg, which is mage ; because even under 50/60% resist , if 1 stun goes on you under all those AOE+ other targets , you will die 100%

 

Ty for reading !

 

I see seekers as sniper class, their targets are mostly healers and artillery in general (chiefs/mages/rangers/hunters) and other snipers (rogues)

obviously they need a good defensive skill, which is not happening with rogues.. 

Tbh their damage reduction makes feel as if their maximun health were compressed into . RAR

Plus added 30% damage

Ok, their life steal and healing is  halved by 50%, but they also receives half damage, It's basically like it doesn't affect him at all. 

But thats not the problem.. 

The problem is their insane damage output,  doesn't matter how much damage u have, the  attack speed makes it greater

[Sandels 8]

12 hours ago, vavavi said:

Paladins and dk are tanks, aren't those the exact classes supposed to be there tanking the dmg? 

Mc tanks are extremely bad at their job, theyre often the ones dying 1st, last wish saves a barb for 8 secs if the skill is even ready from cooldown and thats it, dk cant even get to the frontline in the first place due to having worst movement ingame and cant move 2 yards from any cross. So someone has to do the job dont you think? Chief is quite literally the ONLY class in whole mc side that can tank even a little bit in big fights, everyone else dies the moment an enemy manages to hit them once.

 

12 hours ago, vavavi said:

Chief being able to do equal single target dmg comparable to all those classes, while also doing massive aoe, and being the tank is just plain broken.

1. Chief does way less single target burst dmg than a bd, seeker or a reaper. Reapers hit for alot more than chiefs, seekers hit 2k and 4k talent hits with AUTO HITS hits to maxed players, even tanks. Bds deal double the dmg with their skills and way more with autos compared to chief. On a chief if you see wolf doing above 2k its a miracle. Frenzy does like 2.5k in total at best if all 5 hits land and the enemy is a cloth user. Sure you can apply some bleeds, but theyre dots therefore way easier to counter since you actually have time to heal and support before they slowly damage you.

 

Might i add that bd can instantly apply 2 bleeds which is equivalent to 4 or more chief bleeds due to doing well over double the dmg compared to chief bleeds, also the chief requiring a minimum of like 10 seconds being there in melee range to even apply them.

 

2. How hard is it to understand that you CANNOT do both simultaneously on chief. You either have alot of aoe dmg with magic, or you have alot of single target dmg with phys. You cannot have everything at the same time. Aswell the fact that a non orci book user or fully booked chief does not even have the option to go physical in big fights, they do not have the tankiness to be able to survive. Physical makes it alot harder to tank but with the help of orci book and certain builds it can be somewhat doable although still way less tanky than a magic user.

 

 

9 hours ago, vavavi said:

Other melee classes aren't able to charge in and tank everything either.

Neither can chief, they can tank when you got other people giving you several buffs including shaman dmg reduction, yes while having 100% dmg redu you logically will not die for the duration. An orci one can do some work alone, but they arent invincible and also die the moment some enemies actually focus their dmg on them.

 

And unless youre fully booked you will die if you try to go in middle of enemies, as you should. Sure a 15 book chieftain will be able to tank a little better, but will also die quick. Same way theres fully booked mages and bds in EU who can go frontline and certainly do their part in the fight before, if even dying.

 

I already explained somewhere to you why chiefs sometimes get tanky and its purely due to lifesteal and rage/guild fury effects. Switching swooping into a single big hit and/or perhaps removing the extra dmg reduction based on lost hp from rugged while increasing the base to like 50-55% would already make a huge impact, even if it was just the rugged change and nothing done to swooping, you dont play chief so you just cant see that.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sandels

[Fynn 129]

35 minutes ago, Sandels said:

Mc tanks are extremely bad at their job, theyre often the ones dying 1st, last wish saves a barb for 8 secs if the skill is even ready from cooldown and thats it, dk cant even get to the frontline in the first place due to having worst movement ingame and cant move 2 yards from any cross. So someone has to do the job dont you think? Chief is quite literally the ONLY class in whole mc side that can tank even a little bit in big fights, everyone else dies the moment an enemy manages to hit them once.

 

 

Agree, buff barbarians, oficially the worst tank in the game, even dk is a bit tankier. 

[Salazam 476]

2 horas atrás, Sandels disse:

Mc tanks are extremely bad at their job

dk is an excellent tank, has area damage, good survival and control. there are also reapers who can help do frontline

 

2 horas atrás, Sandels disse:

Chief is quite literally the ONLY class in whole mc side that can tank even a little bit in big fights, everyone else dies the moment an enemy manages to hit them once.

this is not true

 

chieftain needs changes that make him tank less and reduce his interaction with the t5 book.

[Higgings 1824]

34 minutes ago, Salazam said:

dk is an excellent tank, has area damage, good survival and control. there are also reapers who can help do frontline

 

DKs is an ok tank. Excellence is far away from the compliments this class may currently receive. 

[Salazam 476]

2 minutes ago, Higgings disse:

 

DKs is an ok tank. Excellence is far away from the compliments this class may currently receive. 

I don't know about the dks you know, but the ones I know can play the role of a very good tank. 

high vampirism values, damage reductions, controls.
But I think discussing this would be better for another topic

[Sandels 8]

27 minutes ago, Salazam said:

chieftain needs changes that make him tank less

Make chief less tanky but give it something else to work with then sure. If you only nerf the tankiness without adding anything to cover that loss, they will be unusable. Reduce the tankiness in big fights but give better ranged abilitites or ways to survive, fair enough. But it should be noted that chief is the only class in mc that can do work in smaller fights vs elves which should be kept in mind. Chief is the only class that can go face to face melee battle with bd or seeker without immediately dying, Its really the only class that has any counterplay or chance of winning vs any team of the top elf pvp classes in smaller fights like bd, beastmaster, pala, seeker, druid, you name it. Only chief can put up a match vs those mainly due to being able to survive for more than 2 seconds when they catch you. Reducing the tankiness would mean either other mc classes needing to be heavily buffed to put up a fight or all the elves being nerfed to the ground which is unlikely.

[Sandels 8]

3 minutes ago, Salazam said:

don't know about the dks you know, but the ones I know can play the role of a very good tank. 

high vampirism values, damage reductions, controls

i see dks getting deleted from existence in 5 seconds by any good seekers, bds, mages, beastmasters, anything that has good dmg and if they use their best tank setups possible, they can tank for perhaps another 5 seconds while losing every other ability they would otherwise have.

[Salazam 476]

1 hour ago, Sandels said:

i see dks getting deleted from existence in 5 seconds by any good seekers, bds, mages, beastmasters, anything that has good dmg and if they use their best tank setups possible, they can tank for perhaps another 5 seconds while losing every other ability they would otherwise have.

As a beastmaster player I can say that it is not easy to kill a dk, just like any other tank class in the game (except barbarian). dks are not weak, but people want to play as a dk dmg

2 hours ago, Sandels said:

Make chief less tanky but give it something else to work with then sure. If you only nerf the tankiness without adding anything to cover that loss, they will be unusable. Reduce the tankiness in big fights but give better ranged abilitites or ways to survive, fair enough. But it should be noted that chief is the only class in mc that can do work in smaller fights vs elves which should be kept in mind. Chief is the only class that can go face to face melee battle with bd or seeker without immediately dying, Its really the only class that has any counterplay or chance of winning vs any team of the top elf pvp classes in smaller fights like bd, beastmaster, pala, seeker, druid, you name it. Only chief can put up a match vs those mainly due to being able to survive for more than 2 seconds when they catch you. Reducing the tankiness would mean either other mc classes needing to be heavily buffed to put up a fight or all the elves being nerfed to the ground which is unlikely.

Chiefs are not the only ones who can deal with the elf classes, they are not the only MC class in the game. There are reapers, charmers, dks, everyone can have a good survival.

but you're right, chief is currently the only class that alone can handle more than 10 elves, and that's not something that should happen.

 

I didn't just propose a reduction in the chief's tanking capacity, there are several other changes.

 

Among them, more damage to magical chiefs and hybrids.

[Sandels 8]

Just now, Salazam said:

As a beastmaster player I can say that it is not easy to kill a dk

if the dk is equal to you in strength (equips, amps, books) it is not hard at all to kill them, and obviously using buffs that work well vs them. Yes if youre a "normal" guy with normal pvp gear and perhaps not using buffs and you go fight a +10 greatness dk who is on full buffs and perhaps has books, its gonna be hard. But when everything is equal, its not.

[Salazam 476]

1 minute ago, Sandels disse:

if the dk is equal to you in strength (equips, amps, books) it is not hard at all to kill them, and obviously using buffs that work well vs them. Yes if youre a "normal" guy with normal pvp gear and perhaps not using buffs and you go fight a +10 greatness dk who is on full buffs and perhaps has books, its gonna be hard. But when everything is equal, its not.

any dk with a good amp and the right build will tank a lot, even without many buffs.

[Sandels 8]

2 minutes ago, Salazam said:

any dk with a good amp and the right build will tank a lot, even without many buffs.

not vs an equal strength of enemy granted its a class that has any dmg.

[vavavi 240]

1 hour ago, Sandels said:

not vs an equal strength of enemy granted its a class that has any dmg.

Dks seem to survive against my bd just fine. 2h ones a are less tanky sure but thats the tradeoff you sign up for not using shield.

[Higgings 1824]

2 hours ago, Salazam said:

I don't know about the dks you know, but the ones I know can play the role of a very good tank. 

high vampirism values, damage reductions, controls.
But I think discussing this would be better for another topic

 

Just few dudes who started the game as DKs and Quit it playing DKs; seeing in the meanwhile other tanks getting noticeable buffs while they had to wait for years just to see Saturation being a Permanent Skill.

 

1 hour ago, Salazam said:

dks are not weak, but people want to play as a dk dmg

 

Let's make a test: I give you a damage dealing skill which heals you in certain situations; a damage dealing skill which also deals AoE damage all around an area 3x3 wide; I give you a branch talent which increases for free your magic dmg basing it on the ammount of your physical damage.

 

On the other hand, I give you a 4 sec 20% damage reduction transferable on allies, a Skill which triggers if you're under a certain ammount of MAX hp which is based on the most outdated statistic the game has to offer and which goes in complete contrast with the very purpose of this class (which, I remind you, is tanking via LS) and a basic defensive skill which got discretely good which requires however a relic in order to be maximized. Now tell me: what's more appealing or even more useful? Being a punch bag which takes a bit more than 10 seconds to die or a class which could even help dealing some damage but dies in the very moment a damager aims it? Because this is what we are talking about, in the end of the story. 

 

I would like to talk about this on a different topic though

[Sandels 8]

35 minutes ago, vavavi said:

Dks seem to survive against my bd just fine. 2h ones a are less tanky sure but thats the tradeoff you sign up for not using shield.

idk, never seen them tank for a long time like wardens and palas that can go for up to a minute easily and if its just 1 guy hitting them, pretty much forever until trash enough luck or they kill the guy hitting them. dont know whether or not you got all the newest talents on your fresh bd either. I see maxed out, even booked dks just get deleted in a matter of seconds when people actually focus them. Feel free to try to catch a clip vs a dk to prove me wrong, a fair one at that, for example you with 0 buffs taking a while to kill a fully buffed dk is not a fair comparison.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sandels

[vavavi 240]

24 minutes ago, Sandels said:

idk, never seen them tank for a long time like wardens and palas that can go for up to a minute easily and if its just 1 guy hitting them, pretty much forever until trash enough luck or they kill the guy hitting them. dont know whether or not you got all the newest talents on your fresh bd either. I see maxed out, even booked dks just get deleted in a matter of seconds when people actually focus them. Feel free to try to catch a clip vs a dk to prove me wrong, a fair one at that, for example you with 0 buffs taking a while to kill a fully buffed dk is not a fair comparison.

I wouldn't call a nearly 10 year old bd fresh. If i somehow run into an equally geared dk ill grab a clip. Not sure if eu has any fully booked dks though, but the ones who do exist do fine with shield.

[Sandels 8]

4 minutes ago, vavavi said:

I wouldn't call a nearly 10 year old bd fresh

well, perhaps you know what i mean.

 

5 minutes ago, vavavi said:

If i somehow run into an equally geared dk ill grab a clip. Not sure if eu has any fully booked dks though, but the ones who do exist do fine with shield.

there is actually lots of booked people in mc side, they just dont stand out from the rest due to the classes being overall, one could say, bad. But nevertheless, sure.

[vavavi 240]

Just now, Sandels said:

well, perhaps you know what i mean.

 

there is actually lots of booked people in mc side, they just dont stand out from the rest due to the classes being overall, one could say, bad. But nevertheless, sure.

I don't actually.

 

Or its the reality that mc side players seem to lack any motivation or unity to compete, in EU atleast. It is a rare sight that MC side in eu would come together to actually compete, making it really difficult to have those people stand out. 

[Sandels 8]

1 hour ago, vavavi said:

Or its the reality that mc side players seem to lack any motivation or unity to compete, in EU atleast. It is a rare sight that MC side in eu would come together to actually compete, making it really difficult to have those people stand out.

you see them everyday in arenas and other places and youd be surprised how many of them are actually booked, its just that if its not a chief, they die just as fast with 15 books as with 0 cause they have no counterplay to elves. Theres a reason why you only really see orci chiefs in fights when things get hard, and the reason is that other classes simply cant do a thing against good elves no matter if theyre booked or not.

 

And that is exactly why i say, if they decide to nerf chief, they better buff the shit outta other mc classes or theres no hope for mc.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Sandels

[vavavi 240]

1 hour ago, Sandels said:

you see them everyday in arenas and other places and youd be surprised how many of them are actually booked, its just that if its not a chief, they die just as fast with 15 books as with 0 cause they have no counterplay to elves. Theres a reason why you only really see orci chiefs in fights when things get hard, and the reason is that other classes simply cant do a thing against good elves no matter if theyre booked or not.

 

And that is exactly why i say, if they decide to nerf chief, they better buff the shit outta other mc classes or theres no hope for mc.

I dont do daily arena alot so wouldn't know whos booked or not. The few ones you see books activating on though are super tanky.

 

Also the main reason for that is that generally its alot more pvp elf demanding than mc. Half the mcs i run into when do end up demanding are either not properly geared or afk.

[Higgings 1824]

29 minutes ago, vavavi said:

The few ones you see books activating on though are super tanky.

 

Those are chiefs. Rest just die. 

[hugomedeiroswg 82]

I would even agree with your proposal, but you forgot to consider that Aigrind classifies the Chief as an AoE damage hero and not support. So any significant change must be in this direction.

 

It's also good to remember that chief is the ONLY class that has area damage in the legion, so reducing magical damage would only further sink not only the class but also all of the legion's group content.

[Khrone 648]

18 minutes ago, hugomedeiroswg said:

you forgot to consider that Aigrind classifies the Chief as an AoE damage hero and not support. So any significant change must be in this direction.

AIGRIND also classifies Beastmaster as a Damager class and still gave it an AoE healing + defense buff skill 

 

21 minutes ago, hugomedeiroswg said:

It's also good to remember that chief is the ONLY class that has area damage in the legion

Well, it also has the Necromancer which has a suspicious high amount of area damage skills

[hugomedeiroswg 82]

9 minutes ago, Khrone said:

Well, it also has the Necromancer which has a suspicious high amount of area damage skills

Yes, the necromancer has some area dmg skills that can be used in small fights, but it doesn't compare to the Aoe damage of some sentinel classes, such as the mage.

 

9 minutes ago, Khrone said:

AIGRIND also classifies Beastmaster as a Damager class and still gave it an AoE healing + defense buff skill 

Yes 

[Salazam 476]

2 horas atrás, hugomedeiroswg disse:

I would even agree with your proposal, but you forgot to consider that Aigrind classifies the Chief as an AoE damage hero and not support. So any significant change must be in this direction.

 

It's also good to remember that chief is the ONLY class that has area damage in the legion, so reducing magical damage would only further sink not only the class but also all of the legion's group content.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the post or a comment.
but the area damage would somehow improve even more with the changes in the mouse, and in the violent army.
Furthermore, it is good to remember that all non-physical classes in the game have some forms of support, the area healing and the change in passive would help the chieftain maintain this aspect in the class, as he could no longer use leather on allies. .

[Malik Campbell 27]

2 hours ago, Khrone said:

AIGRIND also classifies Beastmaster as a Damager class and still gave it an AoE healing + defense buff skill 

Wait What? I thought it was some sort of support class.