Sandels

To be fair, only chief due to resist, being able to eat a few hits and heal can tank a good seeker for even few seconds and perhaps hunter if its not in invis, can even tank a top tier seeker for even the duration of their stuns, barb can probably tank till the stuns are over but has no dmg to outdmg a seekers heals from ls, skills or pots scrolls. Aswell as if you dare to stun the seeker, they heal FULL amount from distos, making the job even harder.

you see them everyday in arenas and other places and youd be surprised how many of them are actually booked, its just that if its not a chief, they die just as fast with 15 books as with 0 cause they have no counterplay to elves. Theres a reason why you only really see orci chiefs in fights when things get hard, and the reason is that other classes simply cant do a thing against good elves no matter if theyre booked or not. And that is exactly why i say, if they decide to nerf chief, they better buff the shit outta other mc classes or theres no hope for mc.

well, perhaps you know what i mean. there is actually lots of booked people in mc side, they just dont stand out from the rest due to the classes being overall, one could say, bad. But nevertheless, sure.

idk, never seen them tank for a long time like wardens and palas that can go for up to a minute easily and if its just 1 guy hitting them, pretty much forever until trash enough luck or they kill the guy hitting them. dont know whether or not you got all the newest talents on your fresh bd either. I see maxed out, even booked dks just get deleted in a matter of seconds when people actually focus them. Feel free to try to catch a clip vs a dk to prove me wrong, a fair one at that, for example you with 0 buffs taking a while to kill a fully buffed dk is not a fair comparison.

not vs an equal strength of enemy granted its a class that has any dmg.

if the dk is equal to you in strength (equips, amps, books) it is not hard at all to kill them, and obviously using buffs that work well vs them. Yes if youre a "normal" guy with normal pvp gear and perhaps not using buffs and you go fight a +10 greatness dk who is on full buffs and perhaps has books, its gonna be hard. But when everything is equal, its not.

i see dks getting deleted from existence in 5 seconds by any good seekers, bds, mages, beastmasters, anything that has good dmg and if they use their best tank setups possible, they can tank for perhaps another 5 seconds while losing every other ability they would otherwise have.

Make chief less tanky but give it something else to work with then sure. If you only nerf the tankiness without adding anything to cover that loss, they will be unusable. Reduce the tankiness in big fights but give better ranged abilitites or ways to survive, fair enough. But it should be noted that chief is the only class in mc that can do work in smaller fights vs elves which should be kept in mind. Chief is the only class that can go face to face melee battle with bd or seeker without immediately dying, Its really the only class that has any counterplay or chance of winning vs any team of the top elf pvp classes in smaller fights like bd, beastmaster, pala, seeker, druid, you name it. Only chief can put up a match vs those mainly due to being able to survive for more than 2 seconds when they catch you. Reducing the tankiness would mean either other mc classes needing to be heavily buffed to put up a fight or all the elves being nerfed to the ground which is unlikely.

Mc tanks are extremely bad at their job, theyre often the ones dying 1st, last wish saves a barb for 8 secs if the skill is even ready from cooldown and thats it, dk cant even get to the frontline in the first place due to having worst movement ingame and cant move 2 yards from any cross. So someone has to do the job dont you think? Chief is quite literally the ONLY class in whole mc side that can tank even a little bit in big fights, everyone else dies the moment an enemy manages to hit them once. 1. Chief does way less single target burst dmg than a bd, seeker or a reaper. Reapers hit for alot more than chiefs, seekers hit 2k and 4k talent hits with AUTO HITS hits to maxed players, even tanks. Bds deal double the dmg with their skills and way more with autos compared to chief. On a chief if you see wolf doing above 2k its a miracle. Frenzy does like 2.5k in total at best if all 5 hits land and the enemy is a cloth user. Sure you can apply some bleeds, but theyre dots therefore way easier to counter since you actually have time to heal and support before they slowly damage you. Might i add that bd can instantly apply 2 bleeds which is equivalent to 4 or more chief bleeds due to doing well over double the dmg compared to chief bleeds, also the chief requiring a minimum of like 10 seconds being there in melee range to even apply them. 2. How hard is it to understand that you CANNOT do both simultaneously on chief. You either have alot of aoe dmg with magic, or you have alot of single target dmg with phys. You cannot have everything at the same time. Aswell the fact that a non orci book user or fully booked chief does not even have the option to go physical in big fights, they do not have the tankiness to be able to survive. Physical makes it alot harder to tank but with the help of orci book and certain builds it can be somewhat doable although still way less tanky than a magic user. Neither can chief, they can tank when you got other people giving you several buffs including shaman dmg reduction, yes while having 100% dmg redu you logically will not die for the duration. An orci one can do some work alone, but they arent invincible and also die the moment some enemies actually focus their dmg on them. And unless youre fully booked you will die if you try to go in middle of enemies, as you should. Sure a 15 book chieftain will be able to tank a little better, but will also die quick. Same way theres fully booked mages and bds in EU who can go frontline and certainly do their part in the fight before, if even dying. I already explained somewhere to you why chiefs sometimes get tanky and its purely due to lifesteal and rage/guild fury effects. Switching swooping into a single big hit and/or perhaps removing the extra dmg reduction based on lost hp from rugged while increasing the base to like 50-55% would already make a huge impact, even if it was just the rugged change and nothing done to swooping, you dont play chief so you just cant see that.

Logically, to beat the best of mcs, you need the best of elves. And when you have those people demanding, theres been no trouble especially now with new talents and bracelets. Weak elves cant win best mc pvp people, weak mcs cant beat the best elf pvp people, simple as that. Could mention here that i believe the only mc pts ive seen that have a reasonable, 50-50 chance of beating a top tier elf pt, are with orci chiefs, wonder why it requires a broken orci chief to put up a match to alot of elf pts. And no, the chief aint even winning, more like 50-50 if its best vs best.

No, it doesnt and the its proven by the fact that 99% of the complaints you see, concentrate around specific people every single time. Theres lots of fully booked chiefs in EU, yet theyre never mentioned anywhere cause they actually dont bring you much trouble. yes, you are supposed to cycle them and without those 2 skills being somewhat the way they are, the whole class would be completely and utterly useless. Just showing an ss of arena ranks tells nothing about the class´s actual performance, i dont even know if anyone is actively fighting those guys for the ranks, and with what teams. Theres been times in EU when theres like 6 or 7templars in top 10, does that mean templars are broken in every way imaginable and unbeatable? No. The whole point with the complaints about chieftains is that theyre always backed with nothing to even discuss apart from orci book orci book orci book, no actual proper reasoning or logic behind the rant. You also ignored this completely, for reasons unknown. Theres literally videos of people beating chiefs, often orci ones with like up to 90% winrate but yet you speak as if they were some insane monster of a class and impossible to be deal with while its certainly not the case.

chiefs are designed for it though, thats why all of their dmg is melee range except 1 skill. the same way mages are except mage can actually use alot of skills from range still and got no penalty like chief that loses half of its kit when going either phys or magic dmg. And you have no idea how bad barb and dk are, they are completely paper unlike warden and pala who can atleast heal properly and got good dmg reduction, not to mention passively heal aswell. One skill, swooping army, thats it. Rat is out of the question as its bad.

Nobody forces seekers to use it, but you forgot that their dmg gets practically doubled by it, missed just a small detail but nvm i guess. Its a low def frontline class with no other ways to negate dmg apart from that 1 skill, i find it reasonable while it being flat 50% practically nerfs the skill by like 30% overall already.

And yes, everything combined theyre strong if you have orci book. Some changes could be made to rework some of the skills in the way that they would not be affected by the book anymore, other than that i really dont see what can you do. You simply cant nerf the whole class to the extremes due to, in EU case there being 3 chieftains you kind of struggle with( not that they even completely make you unable to do anything as we seen from various arena seasons where theres orci chiefs demanding and you still do fine) and everyone else you wipe the floor with easily.

No, i mentioned that you get down to like 40% resist before being able to reuse the skill even on resist buffs unless you got like every possible CD boosting tool with you to get to like 160%+ CD, alot of chiefs often die before being able to even use their 2nd resist. to even get the extra 4s from cleansing debuffs in the first place

if you look at any youtube videos where thyere fighting against these "broken" chieftains, often orci ones, you see theyre completely beatable with some of the videos having even like 90% winrate vs them when you just have a proper team. thats why i said, if they take something away from chief, they gotta add it to other classes cause only chief can match majority of elf classes properly. For the root, it barely ever even works in small fights due to reaction relic existing and the chief having long resist giving everyone endless free reaction relics. which you can still get through if you have proper dmg like a bd or seeker for example. I did say that making it flat 50-55% and removing the increase based on lost hp would make a huge difference already to their tankiness at low hp and making it alot easier to finish them off.

it would be a direct 1/3 nerf to the skill which is unreasonable though, from 60-70% dmg reduction at low hp to 40% means you take almost half of it away.

you can already have it permanently on if you have high cooldown so the duration increase would not do anything

40% is too low considering how the class works. 50% bare minimum if you remove the added bonus when losing hp. currently youre at 62% dmg reduction at 30% hp and up to 70% when going lower hp, thats already 12% difference at 30% hp and even more the lower your hp gets which is already a big difference. making it a flat 50-55% would make it alot easier to deal with them already cause they would not be so tanky at low hp therefore alot easier to finish off.

for pvp theres not, only lv 31 light helmet.

you cant play a light armor chief in pvp, the class relies completely on getting high cooldown to keep rugged and resist on as much as possible so you dont die insantly, which means using cloth gears. Making rugged give flat 50-55% dmg reduction and removing the increase based on lost hp would solve the unkillable problem already. they dont die easily because they get up to near 70% dmg reduction at low hp now so it requires some high dmg class in order to finish them off usually.

Slightly late but this seems to still be a hot topic so, Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that is an old video meaning no bracelets nor talents which both made a big difference already to overall balance, bracelets balanced the dmg from chief and mage and other magic stuff a reasonable amount already. I myself play a chief and stopped using magic setup after all the recent additions cause i personally feel it lacking compared to more physical dmg focus for various reasons, atleast for my builds. Also i believe that is an orci chieftain and overall booked therefore its unrealistic showcase of the dmg and effectiveness they have in reality but people seem to like putting the almighty orci chiefs in every argument and example they post. But something one should consider is that while mc side might have more aoe dmg, debuffs and dots and such, elf side also has better tools to counter them. Elves got better support and heals and etc which is quite logical in the end if you think of it. More dmg, dots and debuffs vs more support, heals and such to make it +-0 dont you think? So it cant really be so black and white that oh, this mc class has more dmg than elf ones, not taking into consideration that due to them having perhaps more dmg, you have more tools to counter the dmg, unlike mc side that has less counters to dmg for example (apart from perhaps dmg reduction skills, those also being single target), therefore if elves had the same amount of dmg, dots and debuffs, theyd have to also give mc classes the tools to counter them the same way elves have. The bleed talent is what made it go high with the guaranteed 1st hit bleed and increased applying chances everytime it doesn't apply it. Before you had your 1 burst and after that you had nothing for the next 10 seconds, now atleast you got a couple bleeds more going on. While i agree chiefs got good burst dmg, its quite logical imo cause it comes with the lack of stun. Of course paired with a stunner you get hurt but thats not the case with chief only, the same way a bd, seeker, reaper or any dmg class kills you fast if youre stunned and unable to react, if theyre also built for dmg the same way the chief might be. Where i want to argue though is that while some would say the dmg is high, in the end what value does it bring when you arent stunned and are free to counter it in many ways (exceptions being ranger and mage in elf side cause theyre just bad matchups vs chief due to lack of support and barrier being not so good vs any smart chief). If youre somewhat equal strength in terms of equips and such with the chief youre fighting with, you will survive and have time for you and your team to do whats neccessary, i mean even your priest can tank a booked orci chief for a very long time unless it gets a couple lucky stuns from % or apathy relic proc at a good time or you screw up something, yes as a priest you wont kill a chief but thats not really your job, balanced 1v1s in this game are long gone and changes should have nothing to do with 1v1 unless its completely gamebreaking, which in chief case its not due to them (even orci ones) still having counters like bd and even seeker with the right setup and witnessed them die to pretty much every class that has proper stuns nor dmg with just slight luck with relics and such. Lets be real, anywhere you go the only chiefs people complain about are the very few orci chiefs. Yes orci chiefs are strong but theyre not unbeatable if you have a good team and quite frankly, with a bit of gamesense as to when your team uses their stuns and other skills and perhaps positioning, its really not that hard to kill a chief if you got them in a 2v1 or especially like in all these vids with "full team" and whatever, the reason they lose is coz they see oh haha 1v5 lets just mindlessly spam skills and not care about anything while being alot weaker than the chief in terms or equips and amps and such. Seen mages, bds, bm, even palas and other classes kill multiple people due to the enemies just getting cocky and then messing up. I would agree orci chief is arguably the hardest match but ive seen people deal with them with ease, just requires a brain. If you happen to end up in a 1v1 scenario with an orci chief, you better magically transform into a bd or other counter class or youll have a hard time. Now for more general stuff, biggest complaints are rugged and resist and with all the tools we got nowadays, Cooldowns going through the roof for every class etc, many skills are found particularly strong. I dont see a problem with rugged really, yes dmg reduction is a big thing in this game but with all the talents and perma rugged and all the tools, you still get killed through it very easily if the enemies just focus you even a little bit. Any proper dmg class can still tear you apart through rugged in matter of seconds. You heal and youre back up, cool. But you cant outheal the dmg for long unless youre a completely maxed out orci chief facing low dmg classes. You see all these vids around of chiefs tanking, but where is the dmg? It would take 1 proper dmg class in addition to any of those vids and the chiefs would die in seconds. Having a near permanent resist when youre buffed to the skies is quite good indeed, even though the % does go down every 2s and eventually youll be at like 40-50% before recasting (on resist buffs and high base resist from guild and enchants etc), so you can still get stunned fairly easy especially if theres more than 1 enemy, but it is one of the key features of the class so changing it should be done with caution. As for actual changes, simply removing the extra time from cleansed debuffs would make a reasonable change already due to there then being a gap between resists, yea sure then few people would just boost their CD even higher and higher to try to close the gap as much as possible but oh well, atleast theyd be 50/50 with mage in that sense and losing other stats to get that CD. Theres really no point in changing rugged cause everyone knows that when rugged goes off with you being stunned or such and cant use it again, you will die instantly and theres no way out of it. The class relies completely on that 1 skill with resist and such just making it easier to reuse it. Additionally it only takes one proper dmg class to hit a chief and it will melt even with rugged on in no time. Low dmg classes will not kill chief the same way they will not kill anything else that can heal or tank even a little, thats just the way it is in the game right now, deal with it or make a better class for that purpose. If anything, you could make rugged give like 50-55% dmg reduction but remove the increase based on how much hp youve lost, that way theyd be easier to nuke. Currently at 30% hp remaining, they have 62% dmg reduction and up to like 70% when going lower which makes it difficult to finish them off unless you have high dmg. But they heal so much! Well, if i heal 800 (1300 crit) hp with a 5/5 heal with a physical build with reasonable magic and being non buffed, but with relics, castle buffs, castle heal pots, normal buff pots and scrolls and whatever other buffs one can have, i can make it heal 5k+ total with crits, what can i say, they give all those boosts to people so might aswell use them. Heals in general have gone to extreme to the point where having max level heals on certain classes and builds is a waste due to your max hp not being able to keep up when you heal to pretty much full hp without even a crit. So i dont think this is a chief problem csuse alot of classes can do the same, bd for example can aswell heal like 10k hp in few seconds during mark on buffs. Even the lowest of heals nowadays can be turned into high amount with all the boosts we have. The "tankiness" chief has in big fights comes purely from aoe dmg + lifesteal and killing enemies which triggers rage and guild fury effects (hp regen over time), so logically with a class having high amounts of aoe, you will usually get a kill every now and then from your aoe finishing off low hp enemies to grant you those boosts. Problem is not the dmg itself, its the fact that it is constant therefore giving contant lifesteal. This could be affected by turning swooping army into a single hit doing more dmg or something, but would it then be too strong for small fights due to having more nuke power, i don't know. Dmg. I dont think the dmg needs any adjustment for reasons and possible changes i mentioned above, i think by slightly nerfing the resist and/or rugged, chiefs will be less likely to be able to just run through everything and spam endless dmg to you. Also because chief is the only class (perhaps physical charmer aswell if facing low dmg classes that cant kill the dogs easily) that even has enough dmg to deal with elf classes that are even somewhat tanky or can heal In general, chief is in a weird spot cause its the reason mc side is somewhat okay. Chief is the only proper source of aoe dmg and/or stagger and a little control without having to fear for your life to be taken in 0.5 seconds if you make even a slight mistake, if those were taken away, theyd have to give them to some other class. Its been a long time since ive seen any other class have any chances vs elves in arenas or other pvp stuff except chief. Its one, if not the only counter to alot of elf classes therefore nerfing chief too much leaves the mc side no way to deal with elves. If they nerf chief, theyll have to give other mc classes better tools to fight elves, simple as that. Like, i dont think theres another class in mc side that can do anything to many of elf classes except chief. You got people saying "all you see is chiefs", well the reason for that is very simple: its the only class that has any counterplay to elf classes, other classes just die. You see in all these times in 5x5, the whole mc team dies in a blink and whats remaining? A chief (although non orci chiefs still die quick and pretty much all the vids you see around where they refuse to die easy are orci chiefs). Is that because chief is broken or is that because the rest of mc classes simply have no tools to fight and chief being the only class that can put up a fight and there must be atleast some sort of counterplay to the opposite side. Should the chiefs die in 2 seconds like the rest of mc classes for elves to win everything without effort, i dont think so.

Eagle eye has a maximum of x2 effects and to be able to have x2 effects permanently, you need about 100% CD even with orcinus book if you do the math. With a mix of lv 30/32 greatness armors with CD enchants, a belt that has CD, maxed talents and guild bonus, you still only get up to around 70%. To be able to have x2 permanently on, or x2 even for a small duration, you would need to have a shaman buffing you with their CD skill, or use CD pot and scroll (pot 15%, scroll 10% max). While it is possible to have resist skill permanently on with orci book (if you remove 3 or more debuffs when you use it and have about 70% CD, that is), the % of resist gets to pretty low if you do the math, after 8 seconds youre already down to 60% resist if youre not using resist buffs, which is already low enough to be stunned to death pretty easily during mass fights like gvgs/irselnort wars. Incorrect. The more i read the more i think that you do not play a chief at all. The extra seconds you get to the duration come from the amount of debuffs you remove when you use the skill, for example: Chief 1 has 0 debuffs applied to him, the chief uses resist, it lasts for 6 seconds regardless how many effects he resists AFTER using the skill. Chief 2 has 3 debuffs applied to him, the chief uses resist, it lasts 9 seconds because he he removed 3 debuffs when using the skill. Max amount of debuffs removed with 4/4 resist skill is 4, so it is possible to have 14 seconds of resist without orci book if you have the talent and remove 4 debuffs when using the skill. It is possible to have it permanently on even without orci book, 115% CD gets you down to 13.9 seconds cooldown of the skill. A chief with 70% CD + 15% CD pot + shaman 30% CD buff gets you to 115% already. The chief in the video has way more books than 1. Barb is also a bad class vs chief, it does low dmg, a chief can tank it with rugged and heals and it has a dispell skill to remove berserker power or such skills. Barb has 0 support to help a teammate when needed, alone it cant tank a chief for long due to chief dot dmg being able to remove stone skins easily etc, the list goes on. Its not like they can just walk around freely spamming skills on enemies endlessly without interruption, they have few seconds longer resist and rugged and it doesnt make them unable to be stunned at all, they just get a few extra seconds of time per skill use. Chieftains in general are tanky in mass fights due to the high amount of aoe dmg they do which gives them alot of lifesteal, having rage buff active permanently in mass fights which heals for 15% of their hp everytime they kill someone (they get alot of kills every fight since the amount of aoe is high and finishes off alot of low hp enemies), guild fury skill healing 30% for each enemy killed aswell, rage and guild fury help classes with high aoe alot in mass fights. Eagle being a buff that lasts for 8 seconds and you can perma it if youre not permastunned (meaning that even if you get stunned sometimes, you still have eagle around you 24/7 doing aoe dmg and healing you with lifesteal etc.). I dont think i need to continue listing all the things that affect way more than a simple book. Chief is generally just strong in any mass fight, not just because 1-2 of them/server got orci book. As for arena, sure orci chiefs are a hard match but certainly beatable with the correct team. My final words are that you should learn the class u want to complain about first, before saying things that are either irrelevant to it, incorrect information or just nonsense. A video of a barb hitting a chief, applying bleeds and oher debuffs, just for him to then remove them all when using resist, getting all those extra seconds to it, not even removing event/bp effects from the buff bar so no one can even see what debuffs he has when he uses resist which is critical information because it affects the duration of the skill, makes me think that the video was intentionally made to look as bad as possible for the chief cause who would fight in arena without knowing what buffs and debuffs the enemy even has?

Its not like you can freely attack the commander anyway. Castles nowadays are mostly either free at guard or 2 alliances vs each other in guard room so theres alot more to it than hitting 1 guy who "cant die". And in Eu theres been an orci book user as commader 1 time so it clearly has never been a problem with the book so why you suddenly claim it is a problem now. While chief surely is on the better side of pvp classes in mc side, its just how the game is, some classes perform better than others in both elf and mc sides. In addition there havent been much problems with chiefs afterall, the only problematic ones are those with orci and fully booked ones like every class with books, so its not a problem with the class. As you mentioned here, youve been able to kill them even though all considered it should be practically impossible as people here claim. People with sea books are hard to beat but certainly not impossible. In general, i do believe this is more of a server problem rather than a problem with the mechanics, in Eu especially 90% of people copy each others builds and no one even tries different setups and there arent that many people who are pvp focused and have the correct class/pt combinations, or books needed to perform well, let alone even maxed equips and amps. This is not just sea book people but in general, if you put lets say 2 priests vs 2 chiefs ofc u have 0 chance of winning, you need the right setup to win vs certain pts and this becomes more important when fighting people with many books, especially sea ones. You cant complain about something you cant win if you dont have the right tools to fight them in the first place. This was about arena mainly. 1-2 chiefs with orci books or any classes with sea books make no difference in any mass fights where there are 50+ people who all as a whole affect the outcome. If theres 50+ people or in most gvgs, 100-200 people who all affect the outcome, having 2 chiefs there with orci books makes zero difference and its just insane to even think of that.

Just wanted to add a few points in here. As a maxed chief player myself i would say the 2 shot/burst kill is kind of a thing on full physical dmg build chief IF you have maxed/equal to enemy amp AP gears and no greatness stuff yet, since you can have near the max possible damage before greatness but to get the defence you need greatness items. But when it comes to the end goal of greatness items, thats when things change and the "oneshot" potential goes effectively to zero. There is not a single class in the game that dies in one combo to a chief when you got atleast greatness accessories and obviously being about same amp as the chief especially when youre buffed up as you mostly are when fighting, i do agree that the dmg is high, but death is avoidable and most classes in game have skills that can counter the burst with little to no effort. Now for rugged its surely on the better side of defensive skills, but its not too hard to deal with once you learn to fight vs chiefs (skill timing is crucial vs them and overall only orci book chiefs are a real pain in the ass but thats like1-2 people/server). Even with around 70% cooldown the skill has +-18 second cooldown while it lasts 10. Resist is 6 seconds +1 second for each cleansed debuff at maximum of 4, talent which adds 4 seconds time but aswell adds gambling since you lose 10% resist every 2 sec. For aoe dmg i dont think the dmg itself is the issue but rather that its continuous over 8 secs which gives the ability to get constant lifesteal from it which do make u pretty tanky in some situations. For stun combo all im gonna say is everyone milks off reaction relics from chief resist and it requires 2 skill combo so its less effective than u think. About seeker talent pvp wise i find it not too bad, its the same with rogue if u get stunned from stealth without being prepared, youre gonna die unless youre a tank. 1v1 situations are different scenario but thats kind of irrelevant since the game is mostly about teamplay. Sure they hit 1600+/autohits to +10 full greatness people which is quite damn high but atleast so far from what i´ve personally seen, they dont dominate arena or such and can be dealt with. Pve wise its easily on the "broken" side in my opinion, they already tried to make mc and elf somewhat balanced pve wise especially dmg wise so idk why they decided to add this talent while seekers already had best dmg in game (exception being at bosses like spring raids that push people away which gives a slight advantage to ranged classes.). Even though its mainly extremely good in pve it has major effects in a few pvp related things aswell like mermen gvg stage 2 where seekers do ridiculous damage to pylons in no time which can affect the outcome of the gvg. Overall both sides should be somewhat balanced in pve aswell in my opinion and seekers with the new talent are just way out of the league in that regard. For books i wont say anything cause they work the same for every class some just benefit more from some of the books while others benefit more from some other books.