Suggestions on Changes to Seekers

[Potatochip 3]

Hi all, just wanna leave some of my suggestion here as a seeker main.

 

My suggestions on the key talents for seeker. I had included some clarifications so non-seekers players can understand too.

 

 Stupefying Pain: If a character has the "Inner Rage" skill, they receive 55% less damage from all attacks and also 50% less healing from skills and from the "Health Theft" parameter. Every 1.5 sec., the character's health level decreases to 30% of the maximum.

• Even though u receive 55% less damage BUT 50% less healing and only 30% max hp. Lets do some maths 
  • Lets assume you have 10k hp and 0 def
  • Seeker without stupefying pain: you can tank 10,000 dmg
  • Seeker with stupefying pain: you can tank (10k*0.3)/0.55 = 5,454 dmg
  • With stupefying pain, you become nearly twice as weak as you are (seeker are already naturally weak with light armour). Many people seems to be confused and think you're tanky when they see the damage dealt on you are halved.
• The "55% less damage received" buff does not apply to any MAX HP percentage based damage.
  • Seekers get easily countered with any form of damage that is HP percentage based. Some examples:
    • Terrible Relic of Life Weakness (lose 10% max hp when using skill): if relic effect is applied to you, you basically cant use any skills or you will be losing 1/3 of your health instantly. (for those who don't understand: lets say you have 10k max hp, with talent you will have 3k hp, when you use a skill with this effect on, you will be deducted 1k hp out of the 3k hp you initially had, that is 1/3 of your hp gone just cause of a relic!). Not only that, this relic is widely available to every class. Even some aoe spells like mage's time warp can apply this to you. In pvp, you can be having full reward gears and still be instantly deleted if you used skills without noticing this effect on you. In group fights, most of the time, you can barely even see this effect on yourself. And lets not bring up that there is another relic that have this exact same effect visual/animation (the one that deals periodic damage if you dont move, I dont remember name)
    • Totems in dg or certain quests that deals HP% based damage when you step near them. Or like that poison effect in Hard temple dg where its literally impossible for you to complete the dg without deactivating this talent.
  • My suggestion: Either MAX HP percentage based damages should also be reduced by 55% or make it so that MAX HP percentage based damage are calculated based on 30% hp as MAX HP instead of the actual 100% MAX HP
• Overall, you get 30% extra damage but being 50% LESS TANKY AND 50% LESS HEALING. This talent allows you to sacrifice survivability for more damage output. Its more of a trade-off instead of a direct buff to you. Remember, most other classes have key talent that only gives direct buff with no nerfs/trade-off stuff (eg. bd shield buff talent, mage shatter stone talent etc..)

 

 Bloody Rampage: The "Bloodlust" skill additionally restores the character's health in the amount of 2% of the maximum for each bleeding effect dealt to the enemy, but not more than 10%.

• Its absolutely useless. Seekers only have 1 reliable bleed skills currently and that is splitting blow. Both your splitting blow or bloodlust skill can be parried/dodge/block by opponent. If either one of these skills get blocked, you won't be getting heal for like 15sec (this skill cd is pretty long too).
• 2% extra heal for each bleeding effects, but you don't even have a reliable source to put bleeding on enemy. Most likely you will get nuked down before you even have the chance to use this skill. 

 

 Reverse Gravity: The "Attraction" skill no longer attracts the opponent to the character. Now, when using the skill, the character moves to the target and gets a positive effect for 8 sec. The effect increases the character's "Resistance" parameter by 20%.

• 20% resistance is barely any buff and it only last for 8sec which is quite short
• You cannot charge to enemy while being root but the skill still goes into cd – and u will have to wait another 20sec jst to use it again
• One of seeker’s strongest ability in PVP is the stun you apply on people after breaking invisible. If you use this ability while being invisible, it will break your invisibility and you miss out on the stun effect. Suggested to maybe include a small damage on the ability so you can combo it with the stun from invisibility skill?
• Repositioning enemy is always better than repositioning yourself, so why would anyone prefer charging to enemy over pulling them back and out of position? Especially when you are a squishy class yourself, why would I put myself in the middle of enemy lines?

 

My overall suggestions on seeker:

• Stupefying pain talent is balanced enough. Yes, with this talent, seeker is probably the best dps class right now but that is the one and only advantage seeker has over other classes and that advantage is only applicable in pve, making seeker a pure pve class kinda. Most guild doesn't even want to recruit seekers anymore as they are mostly useless for group fights, gvgs etc. In my opinion, instead of nerfing seeker dps in pve, rouges should get buffed in the pve aspect instead so it will be balanced between elf and mcs. Dps of rangers and hunters should always be lower in relative to seeker/rouge (if not, whats the point of being a melee dps when range classes can deal the same amount of dps as you).
• Right now, every seeker is choosing stupefying pain because the other 2 key talents are just absolutely useless. And so, every seeker will always have the same item/skill build. The other 2 key talents have to be buffed or completely reworked so players can consider other item/skill builds.
• If damage output of seekers is to be nerfed, then there has to be a massive buff to seekers survivability and their PVP ability or seeker class will become utterly useless. (easy to get nuked down, easy to kite, average damage output, lack of stuns/control skills...)

[SaltyCoffe 67]

30 minutes ago, Ihoranger said:

Hi all, just wanna leave some of my suggestion here as a seeker main.

 

My suggestions on the key talents for seeker. I had included some clarifications so non-seekers players can understand too.

 

 Stupefying Pain: If a character has the "Inner Rage" skill, they receive 55% less damage from all attacks and also 50% less healing from skills and from the "Health Theft" parameter. Every 1.5 sec., the character's health level decreases to 30% of the maximum.

• Even though u receive 55% less damage BUT 50% less healing and only 30% max hp. Lets do some maths 
  • Lets assume you have 10k hp and 0 def
  • Seeker without stupefying pain: you can tank 10,000 dmg
  • Seeker with stupefying pain: you can tank (10k*0.3)/0.55 = 5,454 dmg
  • With stupefying pain, you become nearly twice as weak as you are (seeker are already naturally weak with light armour). Many people seems to be confused and think you're tanky when they see the damage dealt on you are halved.
• The "55% less damage received" buff does not apply to any MAX HP percentage based damage.
  • Seekers get easily countered with any form of damage that is HP percentage based. Some examples:
    • Terrible Relic of Life Weakness (lose 10% max hp when using skill): if relic effect is applied to you, you basically cant use any skills or you will be losing 1/3 of your health instantly. (for those who don't understand: lets say you have 10k max hp, with talent you will have 3k hp, when you use a skill with this effect on, you will be deducted 1k hp out of the 3k hp you initially had, that is 1/3 of your hp gone just cause of a relic!). Not only that, this relic is widely available to every class. Even some aoe spells like mage's time warp can apply this to you. In pvp, you can be having full reward gears and still be instantly deleted if you used skills without noticing this effect on you. In group fights, most of the time, you can barely even see this effect on yourself. And lets not bring up that there is another relic that have this exact same effect visual/animation (the one that deals periodic damage if you dont move, I dont remember name)
    • Totems in dg or certain quests that deals HP% based damage when you step near them. Or like that poison effect in Hard temple dg where its literally impossible for you to complete the dg without deactivating this talent.
  • My suggestion: Either MAX HP percentage based damages should also be reduced by 55% or make it so that MAX HP percentage based damage are calculated based on 30% hp as MAX HP instead of the actual 100% MAX HP
• Overall, you get 30% extra damage but being 50% LESS TANKY AND 50% LESS HEALING. This talent allows you to sacrifice survivability for more damage output. Its more of a trade-off instead of a direct buff to you. Remember, most other classes have key talent that only gives direct buff with no nerfs/trade-off stuff (eg. bd shield buff talent, mage shatter stone talent etc..)

 

 Bloody Rampage: The "Bloodlust" skill additionally restores the character's health in the amount of 2% of the maximum for each bleeding effect dealt to the enemy, but not more than 10%.

• Its absolutely useless. Seekers only have 1 reliable bleed skills currently and that is splitting blow. Both your splitting blow or bloodlust skill can be parried/dodge/block by opponent. If either one of these skills get blocked, you won't be getting heal for like 15sec (this skill cd is pretty long too).
• 2% extra heal for each bleeding effects, but you don't even have a reliable source to put bleeding on enemy. Most likely you will get nuked down before you even have the chance to use this skill. 

 

 Reverse Gravity: The "Attraction" skill no longer attracts the opponent to the character. Now, when using the skill, the character moves to the target and gets a positive effect for 8 sec. The effect increases the character's "Resistance" parameter by 20%.

• 20% resistance is barely any buff and it only last for 8sec which is quite short
• You cannot charge to enemy while being root but the skill still goes into cd – and u will have to wait another 20sec jst to use it again
• One of seeker’s strongest ability in PVP is the stun you apply on people after breaking invisible. If you use this ability while being invisible, it will break your invisibility and you miss out on the stun effect. Suggested to maybe include a small damage on the ability so you can combo it with the stun from invisibility skill?
• Repositioning enemy is always better than repositioning yourself, so why would anyone prefer charging to enemy over pulling them back and out of position? Especially when you are a squishy class yourself, why would I put myself in the middle of enemy lines?

 

My overall suggestions on seeker:

• Stupefying pain talent is balanced enough. Yes, with this talent, seeker is probably the best dps class right now but that is the one and only advantage seeker has over other classes and that advantage is only applicable in pve, making seeker a pure pve class kinda. Most guild doesn't even want to recruit seekers anymore as they are mostly useless for group fights, gvgs etc. In my opinion, instead of nerfing seeker dps in pve, rouges should get buffed in the pve aspect instead so it will be balanced between elf and mcs. Dps of rangers and hunters should always be lower in relative to seeker/rouge (if not, whats the point of being a melee dps when range classes can deal the same amount of dps as you).
• Right now, every seeker is choosing stupefying pain because the other 2 key talents are just absolutely useless. And so, every seeker will always have the same item/skill build. The other 2 key talents have to be buffed or completely reworked so players can consider other item/skill builds.
• If damage output of seekers is to be nerfed, then there has to be a massive buff to seekers survivability and their PVP ability or seeker class will become utterly useless. (easy to get nuked down, easy to kite, average damage output, lack of stuns/control skills...)

This is basically what i've said in some of my other suggestion  :

1. The other talents part is something that needs a change as they are completely useless as of now, especially combos with the 2h middle branch and middle block talent skill 
2. The pve aspect i agree , maybe a slight nerf but yeah , I still think seeker and rogue have to superior in pve to other classes, otherwise why even pick seeker anyway when you can have ranger / bm / bd stronger in pve like seeker but having stronger pvp / GVG 
3. The class , as I've stated in another forum post, might need a slight adjustment on the talents that apply in PVP too, after that either keep the class dmg like this ( keeping in mind that it's a dmg dealer class and not a supporter ecc... ) or if nerf even more dmg pvp, increase tankyness or completely rework buff the 3rd branch + other skills

[Theweasel 161]

4 hours ago, SaltyCoffe said:

 

1. The class , as I've stated in another forum post, might need a slight adjustment on the talents that apply in PVP too, after that either keep the class dmg like this ( keeping in mind that it's a dmg dealer class and not a supporter ecc... ) or if nerf even more dmg pvp, increase tankyness or completely rework buff the 3rd branch + other skills

The last talent from 3rd branch is godly specially for 2h weapon users bcz allows u to spam skills As God (harad) Commands, btw the shield talent of this branch is useless.. 

 

The 2nd branch seems that need something like that since also need spam skill in order to apply the most bleeding debuff possible

[SaltyCoffe 67]

6 minutes ago, Lilweasel said:

The last talent from 3rd branch is godly specially for 2h weapon users bcz allows u to spam skills As God (harad) Commands, btw the shield talent of this branch is useless.. 

 

The 2nd branch seems that need something like that since also need spam skill in order to apply the most bleeding debuff possible

The 3rd branch seems like a "More tanky " way but it really isn't , it just gives infite energy, the cd bonus isn't really that effective as seek doesn't have any cd stat+skill , yeah it lowers some cooldown but after 1 combo it's not like you can easily survive 6+ seconds to re-use other skills ( you need to stack the talent too to be able to arrive at 30% cd )

7 minutes ago, Lilweasel said:

The 2nd branch seems that need something like that since also need spam skill in order to apply the most bleeding debuff possible

2nd branch have nearly same problem as i've stated now, skill and BLEED reliable but all of our bleed comes from the skills which are easily resisted ; as far as i've tested even if you can manage to apply some bleeds with the 1st Big talent in 2nd branch ( which is really low % ) it's not like you can effectively lifesteal a lot or apply that much dmg in a long-term

[Higgings 1824]

10 hours ago, Ihoranger said:

Overall, you get 30% extra damage but being 50% LESS TANKY AND 50% LESS HEALING. This talent allows you to sacrifice survivability for more damage output. Its more of a trade-off instead of a direct buff to you. Remember, most other classes have key talent that only gives direct buff with no nerfs/trade-off stuff (eg. bd shield buff talent, mage shatter stone talent etc..)

 

This is not entirely correct though. Other classes have surely got their direct buffs with no trade off, but those classes do not have such skills permanently active. Besides, your low HP based books (Power of Vampirism, the Spring Def ones etc) will be also running; on top of that, you got 55% of permanent damage reduction on a class which is supposed to deal damage and not to be tanky. That's the very point of it: your class is a damage dealing class and there is no logical sense in halving the damaged received permanently if you're not a tank.

You may then understand that it sounds incredible to me to read a request of also reducing HP based damage sources, when they are the only way to counter this skill of yours. I'm speaking in a mere PvP scenario; PvE is unknown to me when it comes to Seekers.

10 hours ago, Ihoranger said:

 Reverse Gravity: The "Attraction" skill no longer attracts the opponent to the character. Now, when using the skill, the character moves to the target and gets a positive effect for 8 sec. The effect increases the character's "Resistance" parameter by 20%.

 

If this part of the skill gets indeed buffed as you say, you will be capable of one shotting our casters with no measures of Counterattacks aside resist stat. 

 

I agree on the parts where you ask for reworks on other branches though. 

[Gladiator 1148]

Regardless of whether or not Seeker as a whole needs a nerf or not (it probably does), I wanna address this one point made about the rage talent.

Losing 30% of the max HP and 50% of healing and life steal, and having 55% damage reduction in return in no way makes seekers tanky. It does not make sense to consider this 55% damage reduction as a "tank" characteristic when the overall survival is reduced due to max HP and healing reduction.

2 hours ago, Higgings said:

when they are the only way to counter this skill of yours. I'm speaking in a mere PvP scenario; PvE is unknown to me when it comes to Seekers.

Also that damage reduction is easily bypassed:

 

It is definitely a big trade-off of survivability, especially in PvP. With some retribution (a potion for example), it really is suicide to have it active.

In PvE though, it's a different story, because there is so many mobs, and because the insane (aoe) damage, the life steal, even when reduced, overcomes the received damage by alot.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Gladiator

[Higgings 1824]

7 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Losing 30% of the max HP and 50% of healing and life steal, and having 55% damage reduction in return in no way makes seekers tanky. It does not make sense to consider this 55% damage reduction as a "tank" characteristic when the overall survival is reduced due to max HP and healing reduction.

 

Seeker doesn't even need to be healed when the very purpose of this build is to be a glass cannon. You don't have the material time to kill this class in arena, let alone if it has got back up classes (which means every single class in elf side but Ranger maybe). 

 

And no, retribution doesn't make their life impossible. Just harder. 

[Gladiator 1148]

56 minutes ago, Higgings said:

And no, retribution doesn't make their life impossible. Just harder. 

Ok so you didn't try it.

 

 

[Higgings 1824]

9 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

Ok so you didn't try it.

 

 

 

I did. And as a tank, they didn't die. It's the very reason I'm commenting. 

[Raislin 337]

11 hours ago, Higgings said:

 

I did. And as a tank, they didn't die. It's the very reason I'm commenting. 

You just pop a reflect pop and seeker lifesteal will do nothing. Clearly you haven't actually given it a real try. At most you will reach 50 something % lifesteal without losing out on more important buffs. (Low hp vamp + sometimes relic from shield) So generally speaking seeker would be 40% or less ls which with the talent on is halved so you end up with < 20% ls. And reflect pot is 20% if i remember right 15 at minimum. So you end up either completely negating lifesteal or close to it. If you cant kill a "rogue" with worse cc no dodge and lifesteal idk what to tell you.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Raislin

[Gladiator 1148]

It really does make that talent pretty impossible to run in PvP. I used a 50% damage reflect set for the memes and a seeker would hit me x3 2ks and gets hit x3 1ks and dies lol (it goes through everything including shields).

 

Now realistically:

- around 30% damage reflection (just a potion + weapon enchant)

- seeker with 10k HP -> 3k HP

- 10k damage would be needed to be dealt by seeker to kill the seeker without touching him, surely most classes can handle 10k damage.

 if we account for their life steal (20% / 2 = 10%), they'd heal 1k back, surely most classes can deal 1k damage to overcome that while seeker does 10k.

 

But even if it does not straight up kills them realistically with barely touching them, it makes them significantly weaker (you'd you just need to do 1k damage in that example).

So what if it just "makes it harder", do you need a instant kill against seekers with that talent? It shouldn't make their life impossible to be a good counter.

[Higgings 1824]

4 hours ago, Raislin said:

You just pop a reflect pop and seeker lifesteal will do nothing. Clearly you haven't actually given it a real try. At most you will reach 50 something % lifesteal without losing out on more important buffs. (Low hp vamp + sometimes relic from shield) So generally speaking seeker would be 40% or less ls which with the talent on is halved so you end up with < 20% ls. And reflect pot is 20% if i remember right 15 at minimum. So you end up either completely negating lifesteal or close to it. If you cant kill a "rogue" with worse cc no dodge and lifesteal idk what to tell you.

 

The statement was that I could actually even damage a seeker with the sole help of retribution, which is not the case. As you stated, the result was a mere negation of Life Steal, which is surely helpful but not in a way that makes a buff request made from ppl legitimate imho. If you want something else, then just buff the other talents as it was suggested several times, but if you opt for a glass cannon build, then - by definition - you gotta be glass and seekers currently aren't - at least in arena. 

 

Now, frankly speaking, so far the best answer you all have come with has been to wait for Xmas / Anniversary to stack enough potions, relics and to create meme builds so that people could finally have a chance vs Seekers. If you want me to believe this is a legit way to deal with class, then I will just take it as you guys were just playing around, but If you really mean what you are writing, then I am afraid that there's a bigger problem to sort out first. 

[Sandels 8]

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

surely most classes can handle 10k damage

To be fair, only chief due to resist, being able to eat a few hits and heal can tank a good seeker for even few seconds and perhaps hunter if its not in invis, can even tank a top tier seeker for even the duration of their stuns, barb can probably tank till the stuns are over but has no dmg to outdmg a seekers heals from ls, skills or pots scrolls. Aswell as if you dare to stun the seeker, they heal FULL amount from distos, making the job even harder.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Sandels

[Gladiator 1148]

I don't appreciate this damage reflect slander... 

 

It's not just ls negation. 20% retribution negates 40% seeker life steal (because 20% under the rage talent). So yeah, I guess, if a seeker has 40% LS, then the potion is "just" LS negation (still a big deal by the way).

And every class can reach at least 10k HP, and every 10k damage dealt by the seeker, the seeker loses 3k (30% retri) no matter what, doesn't matter if he hits you 1k or 3k or 5k per hit, i.e. no matter how tanky you are, as long as you have the HP. And I really doubt that most classes can't do 1k damage to a seeker before they take 10k. If we're talking about similar levels of gearing, books, etc...

 

Spoiler

By the way, that 1k damage is really variable, meaning if you somehow get more retribution, let's say you can reach up to 50%, you don't even need that 1k damage, because then a seeker would be dead on its own (unavoidable 5k damage reflection per 10k dealt!). With that much reflected damage, even if a seeker somehow has 40% ls without the talent (20% with) and still only heal back 2k, leaving 3k damage dealt, which basically the average seeker HP under the talent.

And I wanna emphasize unavoidable, because it goes through all forms of damage reduction, as far as I know, including shields and whatnot. 

 

Now you might say lol 50% dmg reflect, that's your meme PvE build... Well not exactly.

20% from potion + up to 8% from a 2h wpn enchant + 20% from relic, and that's pretty much it.

++ Other sources: +6% from book, up to +4% from an off-belt (obv you don't wanna do it on your main), up to +20% from retribution gear if you wanna go with my "meme build". I know it's a meme, but it is a legitimate meme can work! Especially if you can heal yourself (= more HP)

 

 

 

Look, maybe I'm going a little off-topic, but my point is, this one item makes that talent unplayable in PvP. At least from my perspective, a non-seeker.

 

To the point about waiting for Xmas. The same way people stack up resistance potions to counter full control classes, you could stack up retri pots to counter seekers and heavy hitters. I don't see the issue. And not just for seekers, 20% reflect is still -20% life steal against, any damage class.

 

 

 

That being said:

On 12/1/2023 at 11:27 PM, Gladiator said:

Regardless of whether or not Seeker as a whole needs a nerf or not (it probably does) ...

... Losing 70%* of the max HP and 50% of healing and life steal, and having 55% damage reduction in return in no way makes seekers tanky. It does not make sense to consider this 55% damage reduction as a "tank" characteristic when the overall survival is reduced due to max HP and healing reduction.

... Also that damage reduction is easily bypassed ...

 

... It is definitely a big trade-off of survivability ...

 

It was really mainly a response to this comment, glorifying the 55% damage reduction.

On 12/1/2023 at 8:48 PM, Higgings said:

you got 55% of permanent damage reduction on a class which is supposed to deal damage and not to be tanky. That's the very point of it: your class is a damage dealing class and there is no logical sense in halving the damaged received permanently if you're not a tank.

 

I find it unproductive to harp on this specific talent, when it is literally counterable by 1 potion. 

[Higgings 1824]

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

It was really mainly a response to this comment, glorifying the 55% damage reduction.

 

I'm glorifying that 55% damage reduction on top of everything else Seekers can count on while having that talent on.

 

And again, the answer was making up a build (let it be even relics - those count on builds) for a single class. And you're also comparing the purchase of Resist items/pots (needed cause every single class on elf side stuns, in a way or another) with the purchase of pots useful only vs Seekers (other "heavy hitters" heal. Which means the pot is useless). What can I say? 

 

14 hours ago, Higgings said:

If you want me to believe this is a legit way to deal with class, then I will just take it as you guys were just playing around, but If you really mean what you are writing, then I am afraid that there's a bigger problem to sort out first. 

 

Don't forget to stack some vs Chiefs

[Gladiator 1148]

36 minutes ago, Higgings said:

Don't forget to also stack some when you'll face Chiefs. 

Except chiefs don't receive 50% less healing and life steal, they don't have 30% of max HP, and they also self heal by a lot alongside the life steal (you said it). All of these factors is the reason it works against Seekers.

 

No one claimed it to be as effective or decisive vs other classes. Against chieftains, or any other class for that matter, it really is "just" life steal negation at the end of the day (as long as they have more LS than your dmg reflect anyway). There are many buffs or items that are more useful against certain classes than others, I don't see it as an issue. It would be pretty crazy if 50% retribution killed every damager without touching them, not just seekers with that talent, no?

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Gladiator

[Higgings 1824]

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

No one claimed it to be as effective or decisive vs other classes.

 

And this is the reason why nobody would reasonably stack those pots if not for many kind of scenarios, which is the case of Resist potions and such. 

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

There are many buffs or items that are more useful against certain classes than others, I don't see it as an issue.

 

You don't because we all are allowed to use such buffs (which is wrong in environments such as Arena, imo). Balancements should not be made taking into account buffs and potions someone might use. And the same goes when it comes to counter a class. 

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

It would be pretty crazy if 50% retribution killed everyone without touching them, not just seekers with that talent, no?

 

So you are also aware that this is a pretty situational statistic. Yet you all persist with the nonsense of stacking as many items of that kind as possible vs 1 single class.