Toad Sage 72 Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 This is a suggestion to rearrange skill effects so that we get more efficient skill clicks and a space to add new mechanics. 1. Put poison in Flurry; 2. Remove stun effect from Flurry; 3. Add 2.5 sec stun (at all levels) on Jump; 4. Poison skill is now open for reworks (which I won't add here). My commentary: First of all, when we are stunned by ranged enemy or AoE, we ALWAYS have distance disadvantage. And using Flurry on the enemy does not solve the problem because you will have to walk there while Jump skill can't be immediately used due to the mandatory expert skill delay. If you use Jump skill first, you can't stun the enemy making you vulnerable to the next controls once you get to the target. Now with this combination, you save 2 sec delay by not having poison animation. You can throw flurry at enemy, poison them at once, then use Jump. Or you can just use Jump, sacrificing the interaction with poison, but you get to your target while stunning them. The 2.5 sec stun is necessary because after you use Jump, you can't do anything until around 2 sec after the effect. It's massive delay. Unless devs want to buff it by decreasing the delay. This MIGHT help us overcome controls using effective control. I am not saying this should stop here because point 4 is still open if you guys have some suggestions. Last year we have pointed out the problem of Poison skill. It's one too many click and animation for us. If you like this idea, you can use the setup for your future suggestions topic. Or simply reply here so that others can see and discuss it together. Shax, Salazam and omr 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 Totally agree with this, the poison animation delay needs to go its so frustrating and ruins the agility of the rogue. This rearranged skill effect is a great suggestion and shows you that without creating new skills and just switching effects between already existing skills can make so much difference. The only thing i would add here is removing the requirement for target for elusive jump skill-This also fixes rogues slow mobility in the open world making it a bit faster, furthermore in a fight situation, can easily jump to run away without needing a target to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 1 Author Share Posted August 1 (edited) On 7/30/2024 at 8:29 PM, Shax said: Totally agree with this, the poison animation delay needs to go its so frustrating and ruins the agility of the rogue. This rearranged skill effect is a great suggestion and shows you that without creating new skills and just switching effects between already existing skills can make so much difference. The only thing i would add here is removing the requirement for target for elusive jump skill-This also fixes rogues slow mobility in the open world making it a bit faster, furthermore in a fight situation, can easily jump to run away without needing a target to do so. Yeah and regardless with or without target, stun in jump is necessary because we are the only class without no options to protect ourselves while charging to enemy. If we look at all classes with teleportation/rushing skills, they all have either resistance buff, shield, or both which they can choose to activate before charging. This is one of the biggest problem for us because when we are facing controls, we can't do anything especially when the enemy runs away. It can be reliably demonstrated that jumping to our enemy is ineffective at best. And while we don't directly stop enemy from running with flurry in this suggestion, at least we poison them which can probably trigger their defensiveness, maybe skills that work with hp loss, or their active defensive skills to deal with the poison. Poison for rogue is still a big part of their overall damage. So we still need it only in other place. Edited August 1 by Toad Sage Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 On 8/1/2024 at 6:26 AM, Toad Sage said: Yeah and regardless with or without target, stun in jump is necessary because we are the only class without no options to protect ourselves while charging to enemy. This is just a straight lie. You have stealth and reflex. Joy Boy Abunda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 (edited) 11 hours ago, vavavi said: This is just a straight lie. You have stealth and reflex. All classes with jump or rush skills have either shield or resist or stun that can be activated (or studied in branch) with the rush/jump. All but rogue. Prove that wrong first. The purpose of said feature is to protect the user from 100% wasting the jump from getting controlled right after the jump. When this is common among classes with rush/jump, it is evident for its necessity. Reflex is a skill that activates unvoluntarily and the timing is not in our control and it goes as fast as it is activated after receiving 1 damage. It is also not protecting us from control which is the topic we are talking here which also is the topic you deliberately try to avoid like usual, or you don't understand. But just for your entertainment, I will give you an example how the likes of Reflexes is not enough protection even for damage (which is not the topic here but ok). You know mage? Mage's Barrier is similar to Rogue's Reflexes. Mage is a ranged class with resistance, btw. They aren't comparable with rogue so we will ONLY compare the skill's function. Mage has a dedicated key talent in one of their branches which will automatically activate Barrier when they jump. What does it show? Relying on the passive's skill activation before jumping is not a reliable protection at all. Not even for a ranged class with resistance skill. Are you saying Rogue should consider Reflexes a protection for jumping? Where is the logic man. Mentioning stealth is straight nonsense with no basis on reasoning at all. Like, where tf is this even coming from. A seeker (who CAN consider their "stealth" protection from control, which is not the case for rogues) has no idea what we are talking about and I will tell you why. You can get controlled right after using smoke skill when you are controlled by ranged enemy while trying to stealth. And then your reaction relic has no chance to activate because the enemy is not within range. We are obviously talking about the scenario where you have to use jump. And no, you can't use smoke skill after you jump because if you jump to your enemy, you can and you will get controlled right away. It also doesn't help that because of how the jump skill works — it will not let you do anything a few sec. after you jump making other control skills from rogue not possible. This is one of the unique problems rogues face that other classes have no clue about because everyone has (at least an option, if not built-in) protection from control while rushing or jumping. This thread also explains why your genius (and somehow all rogues have missed) "dagger after stealth" solution doesn't work. It doesn't bring you to the enemy. And it is absolute uselessness if you throw dagger to a priest while the sun head skill is active. Their control is longer than the dagger stun while you stay where you are. Edited August 10 by Toad Sage Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 (edited) On 8/10/2024 at 6:48 AM, Toad Sage said: All classes with jump or rush skills have either shield or resist or stun that can be activated (or studied in branch) with the rush/jump. All but rogue. Prove that wrong first. The purpose of said feature is to protect the user from 100% wasting the jump from getting controlled right after the jump. When this is common among classes with rush/jump, it is evident for its necessity. Reflex is a skill that activates unvoluntarily and the timing is not in our control and it goes as fast as it is activated after receiving 1 damage. It is also not protecting us from control which is the topic we are talking here which also is the topic you deliberately try to avoid like usual, or you don't understand. But just for your entertainment, I will give you an example how the likes of Reflexes is not enough protection even for damage (which is not the topic here but ok). You know mage? Mage's Barrier is similar to Rogue's Reflexes. Mage is a ranged class with resistance, btw. They aren't comparable with rogue so we will ONLY compare the skill's function. Mage has a dedicated key talent in one of their branches which will automatically activate Barrier when they jump. What does it show? Relying on the passive's skill activation before jumping is not a reliable protection at all. Not even for a ranged class with resistance skill. Are you saying Rogue should consider Reflexes a protection for jumping? Where is the logic man. Mentioning stealth is straight nonsense with no basis on reasoning at all. Like, where tf is this even coming from. A seeker (who CAN consider their "stealth" protection from control, which is not the case for rogues) has no idea what we are talking about and I will tell you why. You can get controlled right after using smoke skill when you are controlled by ranged enemy while trying to stealth. And then your reaction relic has no chance to activate because the enemy is not within range. We are obviously talking about the scenario where you have to use jump. And no, you can't use smoke skill after you jump because if you jump to your enemy, you can and you will get controlled right away. It also doesn't help that because of how the jump skill works — it will not let you do anything a few sec. after you jump making other control skills from rogue not possible. This is one of the unique problems rogues face that other classes have no clue about because everyone has (at least an option, if not built-in) protection from control while rushing or jumping. This thread also explains why your genius (and somehow all rogues have missed) "dagger after stealth" solution doesn't work. It doesn't bring you to the enemy. And it is absolute uselessness if you throw dagger to a priest while the sun head skill is active. Their control is longer than the dagger stun while you stay where you are. Stealth is a tool that can be used to avoid cc, idk what you're on about. Going in to a fight with stealth or without it are hugely different. Resist isn't the only tool to avoid cc. Edited August 11 by vavavi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisung 1 Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 (edited) Please increase Dodge skill time enough He doesn't look like a bandit at all Dodges are missing from the game. This is what I want Edited August 12 by Higgings Please, use normal sized letters Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 12 Author Share Posted August 12 2 hours ago, vavavi said: Resist isn't the only tool to avoid cc Did I mention anything about adding resist to rogue in this suggestion? This suggestion is about adding stun to Jump instead of Flurry. Same number of stuns. Same duration. Just different skill. And, no. Stealth doesn't protect from cc. Unless we are talking about +8% resist after getting unstealthed, maybe using stealth has some benefit to fight cc. Because after I get unstealthed by Deathcall, or Tornado, maybe I can still walk to or away from the enemy with +8% resist, adding some chance to fight back. Once rogue is unstealthed, it's done. And it will bring you back to my suggestion why Jump needs stun instead of Flurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 2 hours ago, vavavi said: Stealth is a tool that can be used to avoid cc Not when every skill get you out of invisibility and detect pots existing, if none of this existed sure it will be a good "protection" otherwise hell no its not protecting you from no cc lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 (edited) 22 hours ago, Toad Sage said: Did I mention anything about adding resist to rogue in this suggestion? This suggestion is about adding stun to Jump instead of Flurry. Same number of stuns. Same duration. Just different skill. And, no. Stealth doesn't protect from cc. Unless we are talking about +8% resist after getting unstealthed, maybe using stealth has some benefit to fight cc. Because after I get unstealthed by Deathcall, or Tornado, maybe I can still walk to or away from the enemy with +8% resist, adding some chance to fight back. Once rogue is unstealthed, it's done. And it will bring you back to my suggestion why Jump needs stun instead of Flurry. You're asking for cc protection after jumping because other classes have it after it, while completely ignoring rogue has stealth to have that protection before jumping. Why do they need to have it both before and after? 21 hours ago, Shax said: Not when every skill get you out of invisibility and detect pots existing, if none of this existed sure it will be a good "protection" otherwise hell no its not protecting you from no cc lol You can not walk into cc and detect pots have been heavily nerfed. Also stealth has a grace period after using it that prevents you from instantly being revealed, allowing for escapes. Edited August 12 by vavavi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 5 hours ago, vavavi said: You're asking for cc protection after jumping because other classes have it after it, while completely ignoring rogue has stealth to have that protection before jumping. Why do they need to have it both before and after? I am so done with your complete lack of reading comprehension. You are still trying to make it seem like I asked for resist even I clearly stated to move our stun from Flurry to Jump as protection after jumping. Just admit you didn't understand or at least didn't read what I wrote. Don't make it look like I made the wrong explanation. You said resist while I didn't mention anything about giving rogue resist Why all other classes have option or built in feature that protect them after rush/jump? All but rogue? Even Seeker has an option to increase 20% resist after jumping. The answer is simple even for your level, because it's necessary to not to waster the jump 100% of the time. Why do you think Seeker class has 8% resistance bonus when they get out of Vanish? For decoration? Or maybe you want to say that "nah 8% resist is nothing", then there should be no problem if we get the same thing. Even tho this is not what I am talking about. The point is Stealth is never a protection against cc. This is peak ignorance from people who don't have the problem in the first place. So no, our stealth is never a protection from cc and spamming stealth has no benefit unless there is some sort of resist bonus after we get out of stealth which I don't even ask for, yet you are fighting against it. 100 stealth x 0 benefit is still 0 stealth benefit. All we ask is same number and duration of stun but in a better position, a stun in Jump acts as a protection, so we have less than 100% chance of wasting Jump when fighting cc, you know, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CLASSES. Not like we want something exclusive to be above the others. But ofc you will find your next way to not understand what I wrote here. You are a pro and an expert in this type of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 On 8/12/2024 at 6:46 AM, kisung said: Please increase Dodge skill time enough He doesn't look like a bandit at all Dodges are missing from the game. This is what I want My latest "Tirelessness and Thirst for Murder" suggestion discussed about this. Yes, dodge is not effective even after the recent changes. In fact, it was so bad they actually changed the Reflexes mechanics so it won't rely on dodge chances anymore. Which is unfortunate the fact that even with such huge change that directly admitted that "yes, you are right, dodge chance is not reliable anymore", they still managed to make a useless talent for the skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 2 hours ago, Toad Sage said: I am so done with your complete lack of reading comprehension. You are still trying to make it seem like I asked for resist even I clearly stated to move our stun from Flurry to Jump as protection after jumping. Just admit you didn't understand or at least didn't read what I wrote. Don't make it look like I made the wrong explanation. You said resist while I didn't mention anything about giving rogue resist Why all other classes have option or built in feature that protect them after rush/jump? All but rogue? Even Seeker has an option to increase 20% resist after jumping. The answer is simple even for your level, because it's necessary to not to waster the jump 100% of the time. Why do you think Seeker class has 8% resistance bonus when they get out of Vanish? For decoration? Or maybe you want to say that "nah 8% resist is nothing", then there should be no problem if we get the same thing. Even tho this is not what I am talking about. The point is Stealth is never a protection against cc. This is peak ignorance from people who don't have the problem in the first place. So no, our stealth is never a protection from cc and spamming stealth has no benefit unless there is some sort of resist bonus after we get out of stealth which I don't even ask for, yet you are fighting against it. 100 stealth x 0 benefit is still 0 stealth benefit. All we ask is same number and duration of stun but in a better position, a stun in Jump acts as a protection, so we have less than 100% chance of wasting Jump when fighting cc, you know, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CLASSES. Not like we want something exclusive to be above the others. But ofc you will find your next way to not understand what I wrote here. You are a pro and an expert in this type of thing. Look, there are only 2 ways, specifically for you, to look at this issue: 1. Do you agree, Rogue and Seeker are the same? If you agree, then everything seeker has, rogue must have too because otherwise it will be unfair. 2. Or, you agree that Rogue and Seeker are different? If you agree with this one, then whatever is not a problem for a seeker, can be a huge problem for rogue and you can't relate because the two aren't the same. You can use stealth in ways we can't. You basically have 2 rush skills. One, you stealth, the other is your pull/jump. And while doing so, you have increased resistance with one or both of those options. Stop throwing "you have stealth" card at us. We are playing chess where we have one less queen from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 7 hours ago, Toad Sage said: I am so done with your complete lack of reading comprehension. You are still trying to make it seem like I asked for resist even I clearly stated to move our stun from Flurry to Jump as protection after jumping. Just admit you didn't understand or at least didn't read what I wrote. Don't make it look like I made the wrong explanation. You said resist while I didn't mention anything about giving rogue resist Why all other classes have option or built in feature that protect them after rush/jump? All but rogue? Even Seeker has an option to increase 20% resist after jumping. The answer is simple even for your level, because it's necessary to not to waster the jump 100% of the time. Why do you think Seeker class has 8% resistance bonus when they get out of Vanish? For decoration? Or maybe you want to say that "nah 8% resist is nothing", then there should be no problem if we get the same thing. Even tho this is not what I am talking about. The point is Stealth is never a protection against cc. This is peak ignorance from people who don't have the problem in the first place. So no, our stealth is never a protection from cc and spamming stealth has no benefit unless there is some sort of resist bonus after we get out of stealth which I don't even ask for, yet you are fighting against it. 100 stealth x 0 benefit is still 0 stealth benefit. All we ask is same number and duration of stun but in a better position, a stun in Jump acts as a protection, so we have less than 100% chance of wasting Jump when fighting cc, you know, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER CLASSES. Not like we want something exclusive to be above the others. But ofc you will find your next way to not understand what I wrote here. You are a pro and an expert in this type of thing. You're the one who keeps bringing up that every other class has cc prot after jumping, which isn't even true. This is what I'm commenting on, but you refuse to understand that and start insulting. Also sure, if rogues dmg boost in stealth gets taken away and 8% resist/movement is given in it's place that's completely fair. Don't forget seeker doesn't have this dmg boost. Edited August 13 by vavavi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, vavavi said: You're the one who keeps bringing up that every other class has cc prot after jumping, which isn't even true. This is what I'm commenting on, but you refuse to understand that and start insulting. Also sure, if rogues dmg boost in stealth gets taken away and 8% resist/movement is given in it's place that's completely fair. Don't forget seeker doesn't have this dmg boost. All classes either have resistance or stun that are automatically or can be activated with the jump/rush/pull. These features protect the class from wasting their rush, jump, or pull. All but rogue. And after I said this in my post, you said "resist is not the only way to fight control". And can you name the melee class that also doesn't have one of the protections I mentioned? Because if you can, that will be the first time you reply with something relevant. Anyway, you can keep that movement speed and resistance after vanish, we don't want it. We want protection in form of stun in our jump instead of a ranged skill that doesn't bring us to enemy or the enemy to us making us vulnerable on our way to the enemy. If you still don't get it, no, we can't USE STEALTH, to OVERCOME CONTROL (imagine I spell that out slowly instead yelling). Yes, for rogue, stealth is our damage bonus. That's why it's not a solution to fight control. Can you understand it now? That is solution for our lack of damage, maybe. So stop bringing "you have stealth" in topics where we talk about solution for control. Your own words are against you. Our stealth are different in purpose. If your Vanish skill helps you against cc, gz, good for you. But as you said, our Stealth is a damage buff. Why bring it up when we talk about solution for fighting cc? Edited August 13 by Toad Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawned 85 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 1 hour ago, vavavi said: Also sure, if rogues dmg boost in stealth gets taken away and 8% resist/movement is given in it's place that's completely fair. Don't forget seeker doesn't have this dmg boost. Its a 1 hit boost anyway not like its a perma one (like other classes got). For 1 hit your dmg is like BDs, Reapers default dmg and then its gone. 1 hour ago, vavavi said: Don't forget seeker doesn't have this dmg boost. Seekers got enough dmg boost in their kit and their are a dagger users. I think there is a lot of dmg boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 19 minutes ago, pawned said: Its a 1 hit boost anyway not like its a perma one (like other classes got). For 1 hit your dmg is like BDs, Reapers default dmg and then its gone. Yeah I specifically pointed it out in Shadow Veil Scam.. post. For one click, our damage is like BD, Hunter, Reaper, or Seeker (in their damage mode, I think). Those are permanent buffs. Then the rest of 6 secs our damage is like having rage buff activated. But people will keep playing the "You hAvE hUGe daMage bOOst FRom steAlth" card to dismiss our issues. It is so hard to address a problem when we are being constantly opposed by a dismissive community like this. Anything we try to address in rogue, the answer is always Stealth. "We have problem with controls" > Use stealth "Our damage is low compared to others" > Just use stealth "Our dodge doesn't work anymore" > Use stealth to avoid getting damage. I can already picture when devs actually give rogue equal power as others, many will cry to nerf it even when the buff is not op. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawned 85 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 15 hours ago, vavavi said: You're asking for cc protection after jumping because other classes have it after it, while completely ignoring rogue has stealth to have that protection before jumping. Why do they need to have it both before and after? Its not really "Protecting" you from a CC or a damage when you can be pulled out of it. Its only protecting you a from a skill which are a target based (logically). All other AOE or "Chain Like" skills will get you out of stealth. Mutes / stuns , locks or whatever else is there will still be applied to you even when you are in stealth, and often they are in combination with another effect which will cancel your Stealth and you will lose your damage even before reaching your target. Detect pots are still a thing even after a nerf... Those pots should be banned from arena as well. Edited August 13 by pawned Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weakplay 5 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 1 hour ago, Toad Sage said: Yeah I specifically pointed it out in Shadow Veil Scam.. post. For one click, our damage is like BD, Hunter, Reaper, or Seeker (in their damage mode, I think). Those are permanent buffs. Then the rest of 6 secs our damage is like having rage buff activated. But people will keep playing the "You hAvE hUGe daMage bOOst FRom steAlth" card to dismiss our issues. I think I get it. You want Rogues to have bd/ Reaper output and resistance skills along with stealth Why else do you keep talking about bd and Reaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omr 15 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 29 minutes ago, weakplay said: 1 hour ago, Toad Sage said: I think I get it. You want Rogues to have bd/ Reaper output and resistance skills along with stealth Why else do you keep taling about bd and Reaper In short, the highest hadith for bd and rogue .but Here it is different many talking about bd for nerf .its class op with everything . and many talk about rogue for buff. because it needs a lot even if it is applied the words he said. @toad sage. will still need many. that classl very funny and no think Developers take they care for this class .more than 3/4 years rogue still failed at everything .do you think they will give him his due this year . will It takes a lot and a lot too be good. that it class It's very complicated. I don't think it never be good Edited August 13 by omr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 3 hours ago, Toad Sage said: All classes either have resistance or stun that are automatically or can be activated with the jump/rush/pull. These features protect the class from wasting their rush, jump, or pull. All but rogue. And after I said this in my post, you said "resist is not the only way to fight control". And can you name the melee class that also doesn't have one of the protections I mentioned? Because if you can, that will be the first time you reply with something relevant. Anyway, you can keep that movement speed and resistance after vanish, we don't want it. We want protection in form of stun in our jump instead of a ranged skill that doesn't bring us to enemy or the enemy to us making us vulnerable on our way to the enemy. If you still don't get it, no, we can't USE STEALTH, to OVERCOME CONTROL (imagine I spell that out slowly instead yelling). Yes, for rogue, stealth is our damage bonus. That's why it's not a solution to fight control. Can you understand it now? That is solution for our lack of damage, maybe. So stop bringing "you have stealth" in topics where we talk about solution for control. Your own words are against you. Our stealth are different in purpose. If your Vanish skill helps you against cc, gz, good for you. But as you said, our Stealth is a damage buff. Why bring it up when we talk about solution for fighting cc? It's really difficult to make sense of this through all the arrogance and temper tantrum insults, but ill try. Yes stealth wont overcome effects that have already been applied, but it allows you to dodge them and to reach the enemy far far better than classes without stealth. So it is a tool that can be used to avoid control effects. I don't understand why a skill thats essentially barbs charge with massively higher damage which can also be used from stealth, is necessary for rogue. If that ever became a thing it would have to be with a massive trade-off, like removing the ability to stealth entirely or something along those lines. 1 hour ago, pawned said: Its not really "Protecting" you from a CC or a damage when you can be pulled out of it. Its only protecting you a from a skill which are a target based (logically). All other AOE or "Chain Like" skills will get you out of stealth. Mutes / stuns , locks or whatever else is there will still be applied to you even when you are in stealth, and often they are in combination with another effect which will cancel your Stealth and you will lose your damage even before reaching your target. Detect pots are still a thing even after a nerf... Those pots should be banned from arena as well. It is protection in the sense that rogues are capable of choosing when and where to engage. You can sneak past ppl, avoid ccs while invisible and all sorts of different things to engage the fight in a favourable way. Classes like bd, barb, mage dont have this luxury. They will be seen, there will be cc thrown at them. Thats what makes those skills necessary on them, rogue doesn't suffer from that. I agree the pots should be removed from league, but it would have to be with some other solution to people just running around the map invisible in order to waste time. Edited August 13 by vavavi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 32 minutes ago, vavavi said: It is protection in the sense that rogues are capable of choosing when and where to engage. You can sneak past ppl, avoid ccs while invisible and all sorts of different things to engage the fight in a favourable way. It doesn't really matter when you attack, there isn't really "perfect moments" for rogue to jump in. In 5x5 scenario, you cant expect your whole pt to wait for you figuring out the perfect moment lol. Realistically thats just not how it works. And even in 2v2 and other modes, you can just hide but only for as long as your stealth allows, enemies will keep cycling their skills getting ready for you to qttack. and if the class you're against has detect skill or detect pot on, thats it lol. Stealth becomes useless, this isn't even hard to digest it's basic stuff if you're familiar with rogue or fought against it Edited August 13 by Shax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 On 7/30/2024 at 12:15 PM, Toad Sage said: Add 2.5 sec stun (at all levels) on Jump Hence this makes perfect sense why it should be added, rogue is meant to assassinate ranged classes like druid, priest, rangers, hunters etc. The 2 stuns rogue has are not working effectively as they should be, so i agree flurry should have no stun and instead just becomes a ranged dmg skill which applies poison to make it unique and strong. And the stun moves to illusive jump skill so that rogue can catch these ranged classes without it having to walk towards them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shax said: It doesn't really matter when you attack, there isn't really "perfect moments" for rogue to jump in. In 5x5 scenario, you cant expect your whole pt to wait for you figuring out the perfect moment lol. Realistically thats just not how it works. And even in 2v2 and other modes, you can just hide but only for as long as your stealth allows, enemies will keep cycling their skills getting ready for you to qttack. and if the class you're against has detect skill or detect pot on, thats it lol. Stealth becomes useless, this isn't even hard to digest it's basic stuff if you're familiar with rogue or fought against it A stealthed rogue is never going to be as vulnerable to ccs as a class without stealth. That's pretty basic stuff too. Trying to deny stealth being an effective tool is dumb imo. 1 hour ago, Shax said: Hence this makes perfect sense why it should be added, rogue is meant to assassinate ranged classes like druid, priest, rangers, hunters etc. The 2 stuns rogue has are not working effectively as they should be, so i agree flurry should have no stun and instead just becomes a ranged dmg skill which applies poison to make it unique and strong. And the stun moves to illusive jump skill so that rogue can catch these ranged classes without it having to walk towards them That having to walk towards them is a major balancing factor though. Giving a barbs charge to rogues that can disappear into invisibility and already do more dmg is far too strong without there being a heavy trade off. If this was in the form of a talent that took away the majority of jumps damage/made it unusable from stealth it could be fair, but even then it would at the very least need a cd increase to not be far too abusable. Edited August 13 by vavavi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawned 85 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 1 hour ago, vavavi said: It is protection in the sense that rogues are capable of choosing when and where to engage. You can sneak past ppl, avoid ccs while invisible and all sorts of different things to engage the fight in a favourable way. Classes like bd, barb, mage dont have this luxury. They will be seen, there will be cc thrown at them. Thats what makes those skills necessary on them, rogue doesn't suffer from that. I mean, just like my Rogue colleague above me mentioned. Is there really a choice for a Rogue to "choose when to jump in" ? lets take arena as example (as it is daily thing and available for everyone - not like GvGs, mass fights etc... some are not attending GvGs so i think arena is a best example). Yes, there are arenas which are in your favour and there are arena matchups when you will just get raped (Thats why i wont be talking about matchups that appears once in a week like You end up vs 5 druids, 5 mages etc .... ) Now: 1 hour ago, vavavi said: It is protection in the sense that rogues are capable of choosing when and where to engage. Imagine you gets put into arena (5v5 lets say as it most played mode i would say - atleast on EU). You have a Mage / druid / Bd / ranger / Bm as enemies right ? Do you really have a time and space to "choose" when to engage in ? You have to jump in the fight the moment it starts or little bit later as YES, you can choose who to attack and you can wait for a better position for THEM to get closer or YOU -- depends who is pushing which side. But you cant wait too long because you are leaving your team in 4v5 situation and its already a disadvantage for you and your Team. You have a druid which is spamming tornado all over the place, Mage who will probably on 93.24% jump in and will get you out of invis. + BD and Ranger just shooting down everyone with 2-3 skills. You cant get close enough without being spotted or being put out of invis, because if enemy catches you as a first, you are done and even jesus himself wont save you. Gameplay is clear with a new update. Druid will use tornado and everybody engage in. All heals, Stuns, AOEs are being used and you are there standing in Stealth waiting for a "better opportunity" to do something ? Ofc you will jump in. You have to jump in. 2nd way is to run around whole map to catch someone from behind but you are too slow for that and you letting your teammates 4v5 for too long, so thats a No No. 2 hours ago, vavavi said: You can sneak past ppl, avoid ccs while invisible and all sorts of different things to engage the fight in a favourable way. How you will in arena avoid ccs while being invisible, without being put out of stealth, not being stunned or without bleeds being applied to you ? Thats a very small percentage to be able to do so. 2 hours ago, vavavi said: Classes like bd, barb, mage dont have this luxury. They will be seen, there will be cc thrown at them. Thats what makes those skills necessary on them, rogue doesn't suffer from that. im seen just like them also. Due either skills, bug which still happen since the day rogue was introduced and due Castle pot. Arena have not even started and im already in disadvantage. And for me to be able to reach enemy i have to get close to them, do i have some tools for it ? Invis which is useless in 70% of scenarios and is only used as a dmg boost (if you even manage to get into invis second time without a single bleed, stun being applied to you). Jump and flurry for a stun which is 4 yards, 2.5s stun and mostly you wont be able to reach enemy in that time. 2 hours ago, vavavi said: I agree the pots should be removed from league, but it would have to be with some other solution to people just running around the map invisible in order to waste time. All classes with a targetless movement skill are / can abuse it in arena and run. Who gonna stop them ? Here is just a Rogue in disadvantage again.. omr and Shax 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawned 85 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 23 minutes ago, vavavi said: A stealthed rogue is never going to be as vulnerable to ccs as a class without stealth. That's pretty basic stuff too. Trying to deny stealth being an effective tool is dumb imo. Its effective tool if bleeds, stuns, AOEs are not around. Now how often does this happen ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavavi 251 Posted August 13 Share Posted August 13 (edited) 42 minutes ago, pawned said: I mean, just like my Rogue colleague above me mentioned. Is there really a choice for a Rogue to "choose when to jump in" ? lets take arena as example (as it is daily thing and available for everyone - not like GvGs, mass fights etc... some are not attending GvGs so i think arena is a best example). Yes, there are arenas which are in your favour and there are arena matchups when you will just get raped (Thats why i wont be talking about matchups that appears once in a week like You end up vs 5 druids, 5 mages etc .... ) Now: Imagine you gets put into arena (5v5 lets say as it most played mode i would say - atleast on EU). You have a Mage / druid / Bd / ranger / Bm as enemies right ? Do you really have a time and space to "choose" when to engage in ? You have to jump in the fight the moment it starts or little bit later as YES, you can choose who to attack and you can wait for a better position for THEM to get closer or YOU -- depends who is pushing which side. But you cant wait too long because you are leaving your team in 4v5 situation and its already a disadvantage for you and your Team. You have a druid which is spamming tornado all over the place, Mage who will probably on 93.24% jump in and will get you out of invis. + BD and Ranger just shooting down everyone with 2-3 skills. You cant get close enough without being spotted or being put out of invis, because if enemy catches you as a first, you are done and even jesus himself wont save you. Gameplay is clear with a new update. Druid will use tornado and everybody engage in. All heals, Stuns, AOEs are being used and you are there standing in Stealth waiting for a "better opportunity" to do something ? Ofc you will jump in. You have to jump in. 2nd way is to run around whole map to catch someone from behind but you are too slow for that and you letting your teammates 4v5 for too long, so thats a No No. How you will in arena avoid ccs while being invisible, without being put out of stealth, not being stunned or without bleeds being applied to you ? Thats a very small percentage to be able to do so. im seen just like them also. Due either skills, bug which still happen since the day rogue was introduced and due Castle pot. Arena have not even started and im already in disadvantage. And for me to be able to reach enemy i have to get close to them, do i have some tools for it ? Invis which is useless in 70% of scenarios and is only used as a dmg boost (if you even manage to get into invis second time without a single bleed, stun being applied to you). Jump and flurry for a stun which is 4 yards, 2.5s stun and mostly you wont be able to reach enemy in that time. All classes with a targetless movement skill are / can abuse it in arena and run. Who gonna stop them ? Here is just a Rogue in disadvantage again.. These are once again problems that could easily be fixed by completely different balance changes instead of giving ridiculous buffs to rogue. Druids aoe being 7x7, stealth bug and map design to allow for flanking (which kinda has happened already) are all things that should be changed. Things that, if changed, would already put the class in a better spot without giving the class extremely abusable, over the top buffs. 39 minutes ago, pawned said: Its effective tool if bleeds, stuns, AOEs are not around. Now how often does this happen ? AoEs are fairly easy to avoid with stealth, atleast the initial ones. And once again, this could be helped by simply making DoTs not reveal stealths in general as fast (possibly by adding a longer grace period to them after using stealth). Even something like adding a 2 second immunity to stuns upon stealthing to both rogues and seekers could work. I'm not saying nothing needs to change. I think that the assassin playstyle as a whole should be buffed across the board by making it more viable. I just disagree with over the top buffs that could easily be abused. Like come on, a full blown damage skill with a stun that you can use to jump over aoes, on a rogue? Thats just a roided out barb charge with invisibility on top of it. Edited August 13 by vavavi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 5 hours ago, weakplay said: I think I get it. You want Rogues to have bd/ Reaper output and resistance skills along with stealth Why else do you keep talking about bd and Reaper That is, as usual, your wrong interpretation just like how you, more than 3 times, misinterpret how I use numbers of people who play rogue as "seeker is better than rogue". Why else I *keep* talking about bd and reaper? Did I really mention them repeatedly here or other topics? I mentioned them here because somebody was talking about it therefore I responded. And no, we don't want exactly that damage output. We need more damage yes but that is not what we are talking here that's why we are calling out Vava tto STOP bringing up damage buff as if we become reaper with that buff which we don't. Do you understand now? It's not easy to spell out every point like this to compensate you man. That's why I left the previous discussion with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 5 hours ago, vavavi said: I don't understand why a skill thats essentially barbs charge with massively higher damage which can also be used from stealth, is necessary for rogue. If that ever became a thing it would have to be with a massive trade-off, like removing the ability to stealth entirely or something along those lines. Yes, it's in the post man. The trade off is we lose stun from Flurry. Same everything just different place for stun. I can't believe this is like 3rd time I have to say this is not a free buff, we trade something which is basically equal. And honestly, unrelated, I never intended to mention anything about lack of reading comprehension or other "insult" before you used word "dumb" in other topic. I saw that you are open for some insult so I played along. But here you are complaining. And yes, you can't prove what I want to see. Now I will give you example A DK doesn't have resist skill (but at least they have heavy mm which can help remove controls with some conditions). When they pull enemy(s), they can, at the same time, stun them. Either with silence blow, or death call. Yes, it becomes 2 skills but they work perfectly as combo. A Paladin, which is DK's mirror, has stun in their jump. A seeker, they can activate their high resist mode to repeatedly charge to their enemy. Now all classes can utilize this. All but rogue. It is necessary for us and we are ready to give up stun in Flurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 13 Author Share Posted August 13 2 hours ago, vavavi said: I'm not saying nothing needs to change. I think that the assassin playstyle as a whole should be buffed across the board by making it more viable. I just disagree with over the top buffs that could easily be abused. Like come on, a full blown damage skill with a stun that you can use to jump over aoes, on a rogue? Thats just a roided out barb charge with invisibility on top of it. Like come on, a full blown new content(s) nobody asks for just to compensate for an underperfoming class, a rogue? But even so, when will that happen? The next decade anniversary? Just forget it man you won't even have rogues players anymore if things don't change in the next couple of years. The class doesn't fulfill its function as damage class. Anyway, rogue having damage should not even be a question. Of course we have damage skill, it's our type of class. And with the stun in jump, EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME except for where the stun is. But I agree it will make rogue less vulnerable, which is our intention. Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theweasel 188 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 10 hours ago, vavavi said: Yes stealth wont overcome effects that have already been applied, but it allows you to dodge them and to reach the enemy far far better than classes without stealth Yea good luck "dodging" control effects 10 hours ago, vavavi said: So it is a tool that can be used to avoid control effects. So basically going into stealth and dont fight..bcz thats the only way to avoid cc and aoe dmg... 10 hours ago, vavavi said: It is protection in the sense that rogues are capable of choosing when and where to engage die. You can sneak past ppl, avoid ccs while invisible and all sorts of different things to engage fck up the fight in a favourable stupid way. 8 hours ago, vavavi said: A stealthed rogue is never going to be as vulnerable to ccs as a class without stealth. That's pretty basic stuff too. Trying to deny stealth being an effective tool is dumb imo. 1- it fails...yes.. Stealth isnt 100% sucessful. 2- detection pots exist. 3- at least every class has 1 aoe skill , so rogues are exposed to aoes always. 4- bleeding/poison/magic DoT cancels stealth, even their own poison skill cancels it. 5- screenbug also Play against it. suddenly a 3x3 skill works as if were 7x7. Etc... Now, Our "insane" damage comes from a single use damage buff from stealth. while all other dps class has it permanently, rogues have an powerful hit every 12 sec... How curious, isn't it? Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 3 minutes ago, Theweasel said: It is protection in the sense that rogues are capable of choosing when and where to engage die. You can sneak past ppl, avoid ccs while invisible and all sorts of different things to engage fck up the fight in a favourable stupid way. I love it lol Higgings and Shax 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weakplay 5 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, Toad Sage said: That is, as usual, your wrong interpretation just like how you, more than 3 times, misinterpret how I use numbers of people who play rogue as "seeker is better than rogue". Why else I *keep* talking about bd and reaper? Did I really mention them repeatedly here or other topics? I mentioned them here because somebody was talking about it therefore I responded. And no, we don't want exactly that damage output. We need more damage yes but that is not what we are talking here that's why we are calling out Vava tto STOP bringing up damage buff as if we become reaper with that buff which we don't. Do you understand now? It's not easy to spell out every point like this to compensate you man. That's why I left the previous discussion with you. Not to misunderstand you, you are trying to pass this aspect in proving that the seeker is superior to the rogue in pvp. You guys are really interesting, mention it many times and deny it, so why are you bringing it up in a post about rogue pvp, just for fun? Well, based on your reply I don't see any objection from you, but rather a more in-depth discussion, which I can assume you feel that rogue should be able to compare to bd/ Reaper and should have what bd/ Reaper has in the case of having stealth skills. This comparison is the stupidest, completely different class, no less than when you compare rogue and cc classes. Edited August 14 by weakplay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 1 hour ago, weakplay said: you are trying to pass this aspect in proving that the seeker is superior to the rogue in pvp +1 misunderstanding me H o w did you get that man Everytime I mentioned seeker is when I needed to point out that Vava always has seeker in mind when he talks about rogue's Stealth which doesn't work like seekers therefore whatever Vava said about Stealth being defense against control just doesn't make sense. Because he has seeker's vanish in his mind. Also, he was the one who kept mentioning damage buff from Stealth as if that damage buff makes us equal in damage with reaper or bd. Which is not the case. To stop him from bringing it up we MUST clarify that it's a one click buff. This is, to me, an example of "the wicked flee when nobody is chasing". Nobody is attacking seeker here yet you are defending seeker. For what motive? Tell Vava stop bringing up irrelevant things about Stealth as if rogue's stealth works like seeker's Vanish, don't tell us not to clear things up. If he can give relevant response nothing should go off topic. Anyway, we fully accept that even tho seeker and rogue are similar, they are still necessarily different. That's why whatever works for seekers, good for them. But to have seeker in mind and saying whatever rogue has will work EXACTLY the same way, you are either naive or intentionally dimissive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weakplay 5 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 (edited) 3 hours ago, Toad Sage said: +1 misunderstanding me H o w did you get that man You managed to get me to re-read that post, and I'm pretty sure it was you who started comparing the number of seekers to the number of rogues. If you think I misunderstood you, please state the purpose of your argument in that post. I think your logic: Because seekers are good, there are more players. Because rogues are bad, there are fewer players, so rogues are worse than seekers,buff rogues. Please point out my mistake, otherwise it is not a misunderstanding. 3 hours ago, Toad Sage said: Everytime I mentioned seeker is when I needed to point out that Vava always has seeker in mind when he talks about rogue's Stealth which doesn't work like seekers therefore whatever Vava said about Stealth being defense against control just doesn't make sense. Because he has seeker's vanish in his mind. I looked up his speech and tried to understand what he meant. I'll struggle with your speech, not defensively but evasive. This evasion refers to the fact that the enemy is unable to accurately hit the rogue due to its invisibility, which is similar to that of the seeker. Of course you can cite a lot of scenarios, and I know that, but I agree with vava that this is a matter of external factors such as maps, not a matter of career. 3 hours ago, Toad Sage said: Also, he was the one who kept mentioning damage buff from Stealth as if that damage buff makes us equal in damage with reaper or bd. Which is not the case. To stop him from bringing it up we MUST clarify that it's a one click buff. In other posts I'm not sure, but in this post, it was you who first mentioned the bonus attached to Seeker's stealth ability, so vava brought up the rogue's stealth damage bonus response.It seems that vava did not say that rogue dmg can be compared to bd Reaper by relying on this boost, this is entirely your own imagination. What happened to one-click gain? Is he not a buff? On the other hand, seekers lose 8% and have a 92% chance of being hit by control skills, often resisting less than once in a match, so not buff? 3 hours ago, Toad Sage said: This is, to me, an example of "the wicked flee when nobody is chasing". Nobody is attacking seeker here yet you are defending seeker. For what motive? At the beginning of this post I did not mention the seeker, it is you, it is you who started the topic of the seeker, what is your motivation. “the wicked flee when nobody is chasing” I'll give you the same Finally, to return to the subject, I remain neutral on your suggestions, But what you seem to forget is that you have the Assassin class's ability to unleash up to 4 yards of damage. Therefore, I recommend changing the release range of the following abilities to Melee after implementing your changes. After all, you have solved the problem of how to get close to the enemy . Or do you think there are other reasons why you should have such long-distance skills? Flurry of Steel: An attack that deals physical damage to the enemy in the amount of P% of the character's physical strength and deals the "Stun" debuff to them for T sec. The effect does not allow to move, attack, or use skills. Hide contents Skill level 1 2 3 4 P% 115% 120% 135% 150% T 1 1.5 2 2.5 Energy expense 7 8 9 10 Cooldown 18 Usage range 4 yards-->Melee Edited August 14 by weakplay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 18 hours ago, vavavi said: A stealthed rogue is never going to be as vulnerable to ccs as a class without stealth Hiding from ccs ≠ protection from ccs, hiding isn't winning you anything, stealth isn't a skill that keeps you invincible for eternity i dont know what you're on about Everyone is familiar with stealth and they will just wait out your stealth simple as that, and even invisible you are prone to getting controlled there's really no point trying to argue about this. it just says to everyone you don't know much about the class which at this point i think its common knowledge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 5 hours ago, weakplay said: At the beginning of this post I did not mention the seeker, it is you, it is you who started the topic of the seeker, what is your motivation. “the wicked flee when nobody is chasing” I'll give you the same Remember when you said I *keep* talking about bd and reaper? When in reality I only mentioned them as response to other guy's reply. And then you came and I had to clear up everytime I mentioned something else, I tried to get everything back on track to show how the other topics are irrelevant. Now for you, I will give you explanation about what happened. Because clearly you didn't catch it. First of all, to say such skill and skill is a solution of some problem, you need to specify the indication why it is that solution. I asked Vava why seeker has 8% resist bonus after Vanish, and he said because it's seeker's perk. And because seekers don't have damage buff in their stealth. Then I said, I agree. Because seeker's vanish IS a solution for control as indicated by the existence of resist bonus, and rogue's stealth is NOT a solution for control because, as he said himself, ours is a damage buff. That's how I exposed that he, all this time, had seeker in his mind. And I won't say that the flurry skill needs to be melee instead of 4 yards. But tbf, that can happen even tho that will be unfortunate. I will leave it to devs to test it and hopefully they don't mess that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 18 hours ago, vavavi said: Giving a barbs charge to rogues that can disappear into invisibility and already do more dmg is far too strong without there being a heavy trade off Buddy there's already a trade off already, barb can tank the heck out of you, rogue isn't doing that. It's dying in few tabs. Rogue has nothing to give up anymore, they nerfed literally everything lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toad Sage 72 Posted August 14 Author Share Posted August 14 (edited) 7 hours ago, weakplay said: It seems that vava did not say that rogue dmg can be compared to bd Reaper by relying on this boost, this is entirely your own imagination. This proves that you only read what you want to read here. I was responding to Pawned's reply about his comparison On 8/13/2024 at 9:44 PM, pawned said: Its a 1 hit boost anyway not like its a perma one (like other classes got). For 1 hit your dmg is like BDs, Reapers default dmg and then its gone. And I agree that the buff makes our damage like Reaper and BD's base damage for 1 click. Nothing is wrong with how I responded. It doesn't imply anything about superiority nor inferiority. Just in that specific buff, that's how the buff works. It makes our damage comparable to Reaper and BD and Seeker in their +30% damage mode. Now what I want to add is yes, a damage buff MIGHT be a solution for control if we kill everyone in one hit. And if a rogue has reaper or BD's damage without sacrifices permanently, then that damage can solve our problem. But in reality, we don't have that damage and we don't plan to have it. Maybe with some sacrifices, yes, but not free permanent buff like theirs. Therefore I said, the buff doesn't make us reaper or bd in damage. It's a one click buff, and it is a damage buff, it's not relevant to our control problem which is what we are talking here. And then you came with your misunderstanding trying to frame that statement as "oh you saying seeker better than rogue?" Rogue's problem is independent to whether or not seeker is better than rogue. If you find somebody saying that in general sense, deal with that person. Idc. I only care about buffing rogue for now. Can you understand now or should I go another round of spelling out again? Also, for the last time, Vava has seeker's Vanish in his mind. He didn't say that and he wouldn't admit. So I had to extra mile making him say himself that for seeker, they have resist bonus, for us, we have damage bonus. Therefore, seeker's vanish is one of their solutions for control, while rogue's stealth isn't one. It's damage buff. And the fact that he kept bringing up stealth as a solution for control shows that he is talking about a wrong skill. Edited August 14 by Toad Sage Shax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shax 82 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 5 hours ago, weakplay said: I think your logic: Because seekers are good, there are more players. Because rogues are bad No shit Sherlock, seekers are way better lol they just have better gameplay than rogues. Its not super difficult. Denying that there's more seekers than rogues because seekers have skills that benefit the class more than rogue is just silly, YES no one is picking rogue because it sucks period. YES people will keep picking seeker because it's a fun class that works as it should be. If i were you I'd stop posting here its a ridiculous waste of time and you are just making a fool out of yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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