vavavi

There are a couple arguments against it. Firstly, making books unbindable would drop their value heavily in the long term. The reason they keep their value is that they are useable only once. Books keeping their value is important for F2P players, since it's one of the main things that allows people to make a lot of progress at once. It also is important for the game in general. If books we're suddenly cheap, there'd be far less reason for anyone to do dungeons, to open chests for keys, to do guild events etc. Second risk with that is scamming. Trading/selling/sharing accounts is against the rules, but it does happen. Currently, support can help people quite a bit, since a big chunk of an accounts value is bound within talents and books. Making books removable would mean that people can get stripped of almost everything they've worked for due to one mistake. Thirdly, it is kind of in the nature of the game that certain classes get to shine more than others after each rebalance. Right now it's not that big of an issue, since building a new char to match that isn't easy. However, if you made books, the most expensive and hardest to get part of those chars, easily movable, people would just transfer them to whatever class happens to be the best at the time, creating a pretty stale environment class variety wise. Personally I think that these downsides outweight the benefit.

It does virtually do damage since the target won't gain back the hp lost even if their max hp goes back up. For example a 400k hp boss will go down all the way to 240k, which wont be recovered when the relic ends, which is far more damage than a lot of non damage focused classes can do. Hence why I said it works very well against high hp bosses, especially if you're soloing. Similarly it works as a great way to do some extra damage at the start of the fights against tank classes, which can be difficult to wither down.

The damage it does is based on the targets max hp. It won't do much against weak enemies, but in pvp if you land it on a tank class, or in PvE if you land it on a high hp boss, it's very effective.

Weird how every nuke class wants to become a tank

Sounds like it should be working, probably just a bug.

It's not nonsense. Just go and try it yourself. Everyone thinks their class is bad and that their class is the one that deserves buffs. That bias is there for every class.

I've been on the receiving end of a rogue beating a bd. They can do that. Just go try and pvp an equally geared bd yourself. You won't tell the results here, but you'll know its very doable. Also I've witnessed them beating all of these classes. I'm not saying these things out of thin air.

You talk abt seekers 8% resist buff as a solution. How is a 15% dmg buff not relevant? Are we talking 1v1 or what? Cause 1v1 rogue can beat all of those. But 1v1s are really luck based since no matter who fights who 1 resist can decide the fight. Arena wise, I can see druids tornado being an issue, but that's probably going to get nerfed alongside dks similiar stun. And mages have eye so that can work against rogues. But how are the rest such a bad match?

This doesn't matter. Everyone who plays a class will say their own class is weak. Boga says bd is weak, fext says bm is weak, jaan says ranger is weak, toto says chief is weak, cowa says barb is weak etc etc. That really doesn't matter. Bds heal skill took away their dmg boosting skill. Rush stun got nerfed and lost its resist ability by making it instant. They also lost their ability to agro completely. They weren't just added without any drawbacks. Walking speed and 8% resist on stealth comes with not having a 60% dmg boost on top of a lingering 15% one though. Also range does constitute a debate, since stealth helps rogue negate the downsides if being melee heavily. Bd and reaper struggle much more with range than rogues and seekers who have stealth to make up for it, hence their tankiness is needed. I mean a bd won't catch a hunter/ranger/sham etc without being the first one to get hit, while rogues can. Yea, but you do showcase examples of you beating people who heavily outgear and outbook you. Obviously the class can perform well.

There is no problem with the class itself. Can you name one example of a fight between 2 equal sides where rogue can't perform? Aside from a mass fight or one where the classes are a ridiculously bad match for one side. Also yes, it is on average 30% dmg reduction. Sometimes you'll be unlucky and it'll be less, but sometimes you'll be lucky and it'll be more. But long term it averages out to a 30% reduction in damage taken. Also it's not like other dps classes have immunity from cc. Seeker is the only exception out of the 4 light armor classes, but they trade off a massive chunk of their damage for that. Also this is wrong. You keep a 15% dmg buff even after exiting stealth. Seems like something a rogue expert would know. Unless they were intentionally trying to downplay the class for one reason or another.

Rogue has that ability in an even fight aswell. It's not like bds, reapers,seekers or whatever melee class can just run into a group of enemies alone and do their thing. That's universal for nearly every class. I used to think this, but honestly after some more thought I don't think it's true. Rogues excel in medium sized fights. Anything from 3v3 to like 8v8, where they can rely on some support and the team doesn't instantly collapse when one person is missing for a few seconds. In these types of fights that assassin role can work extremely well, especially if paired up with the proper buffs. Even in 2v2s rogues can do great, just not against every possible class combo, but that's the case for every class. Just as an example of how well rogue synergizes in these fights. Let's imagine you have a shaman in team and you're running reflex talent. Weakness totem+that talent alone will guarantee a 30% chance for dodges even against max accu ppl, without using kick. That's basically the same as a 30% dmg reduction. And honestly, reflex is underrated. The skill makes it impossible for rogues to be instantly deleted, no matter how many people they're up against. Which is also perfect for that in and out of fights playstyle, and synergizes very well with heals such as shamans totem. This whole thing about "rogues die instantly" is just wrong, the skills, while marginal for tanking alone, work very well together with other classes. The class becomes really tanky really fast through these synergies. The only place where they truly perform below average is mass fights, but that's just an inherent weakness of most melee classes. Bds, seekers and reapers can't do anything there either.

I have clips of you fighting me and 2 fully booked +10 mages and being able to go in and out of those situations with very high consistency. That 90% thing seems untrue. What I think you mean, is that rogue doesn't have the ability to solo carry fights when the teams aren't equal. Not the same way things like bds and reapers can at least. But even if you mean those cases, none of the dps focused classes have that ability. Sure, changing something so they can get away a bit easier isn't the worst idea, but it has to come with a trade off. Seekers have to trade off huge chunks of their damage for these things, should be the same for rogue. Seekers, when actually using their resist talents, have nowhere near the same dmg as rogues do. They get 0 dmg from stealth in exchange for 8% resist, and the pull talent one, which lasts only a few seconds, costs them another 30% of their dmg. Can they match rogue dps when not using these things? Probably, but with them? No chance. Landing stuns is a universal requirement to doing well. Only like dk/warden don't get punished harshly from them being resisted. Also, comparing rogue to reaper and BD tanking ability is the wrong way to go about it in the first place. That's like me as a priest comparing my tanking to a DK. As for seekers, if they are using their resist talent and giving up a huge chunk of their damage, yea they can get away easier, but they also will do significantly less damage. Allowing for this trade-off to happen with rogues would be fine too. Just remove 30% of their damage and stealth dmg boost and give them 28% resist for a few seconds alongside movement speed. Seems fair.

Stealth itself is a gap closer, it also is anti ranged. I mean, a rogues not going to get nuked by some ranger/hunter until they're within range. Also don't rogues have the highest damage ranged stun in the game? One that can actually stun 2 people at once with the right talents. Not to mention 2 other ranged damage skills, one of which also functions as a teleport, while the other one is a ranged AoE damage skill. They seem pretty well equipped to deal with range.

Yea like the class is supposed to die. Same way rangers,hunters and seekers die when they are caught. It is not a tank class, this should be obvious. Also no, seekers talent doesn't make it so they can stealth whenever. The resist buff is very marginal and lasts a short time. Stealth is 8% resist, but has no dmg buff, and the pull talent one makes them also lose 30% dmg. Having something where rogues dmg gets cut significantly for those short buffs would be fine too, but it can't come for free. Why does rogue need tankyness? They're more tanky than other light armor classes already. They're not meant to be tanks, same way rangers, hunters and seekers drop dead when they're caught. Also sure, movement speed in exchange for losing the dmg boost would be fine. Seekers don't get a dmg boost from stealth so that should be fair. What exactly is the overall problem though? Other dps focused classes, such as rangers and hunters, are already less tanky than rogues. They don't have a resist skill either. What is the reason a rogue should have those while other dps classes don't? Like an actual reason, not "i think they're weak". Rogues can delete people the same way those classes can, they have gap closers, they have stealth that helps with range and they have reflex that does help with tanking. Whats the actual weak part compared to other similiar classes? Pawned and bug reach very high win percentages in arena. That's 2 very effective rogues. Also you would have to give up 100% of the damage buff from stealth for the movement speed. Seekers get 0 dmg boost from stealth also.

In a 1v1 scenario sure shield blocks more, but if its an arena fight with more than 1 person involved reflex will block a lot more. You getting stunned before being able to turn untargetable is like the only way to counter rogues. Preventing them from stealthing again for free is the counter play to them. You can't make it so that can't be stopped, or they'll become far too strong. A more balanced approach is to reward the rogue more for when they do manage to stealth, instead of making that process easier. The benefits from stealthing away from a fight are too strong to make the getting to stealth part easier. But on the other hand when the rogue does manage to do that, they probably shouldn't be taken out of it by bleeds etc, hence why the purification idea. Yeah but quoting the lack of tanking and resist as a problem that needs to be fixed on a damage class is a bit silly. It would be the same as me, a priest, a heavily support oriented class, asking for my damage to be boosted because it can't match what damage classes do. I mean rangers, hunters and seekers don't have tanking/resist skills either, with the exception of seeker having some resist talent.

The shield doesn't stay up and eat damage for 12 seconds, think you missunderstood that. Yea if you take 0 dmg it stays up for 12 secs, but once you take dmg it only absorbs 200+20% of your hp in dmg. So let's say you're 8k hp, it will absorb 1,8k dmg and then break. That's not much more than 1 hit. Yea the dmg reduction will stay for a while after it's broken, but considering that the shield will at best in that scenario block 1,8k dmg, while reflex can block much more than that while it's active, it's not really stronger. Just imagine reflect effect went away after you got hit 1x. What are your thoughts on that purification idea for stealth?

It's a huge deal. If rogues had a talent that removed stealth in exchange for a dmg redu/resist skill combo, I'm sure people would be back to stealth very quickly. You underestimate the skills utility and impact heavily. Reflex protects them from instant death without a click though. Do you think seekers shield lasts any longer than rogues reflex when they're targeted? It breaks just as fast. Only difference is that a seeker can't get a shield up when stunned, rogues can get reflex up. Out of those 4 light armor dmg classes rogues are probably the tankiest ones. You can't add a resist skill to that mix without heavily nerfing stealth. There's already a small window of time where a rogue actually can be focused down. You can't eliminate that time window by making them unstunnable during it aswell. Something that could work would be like adding a purification effect to stealth. Like removing 1-2 debuffs when the rogue manages to stealth for example. That way you'd still keep the window open where they're actually vulnerable, and would also reward it more when they do manage to stealth out. But just having an additional skill that makes the time you have to catch them even less would be way too strong. It wasn't supposed to prove anything I said. It was supposed to disprove what you were saying about it being an "absolute fact" that rogues can't kill anything.

Idk man, maybe im crazy, but this is a clip of you deleting a ranger who heavily outgears/outbooks you without him having any chance to fight back. Rogue really is just useless huh

Ok well here is a video of you beating a paladin on castle buffs while you don't have them. Definitely seems like an absolute fact

You literally have videos yourself where you boast about beating people (apparently including people with sea books) in arena. Can it really be that bad when you're beating people far more geared than you? You even point out how you have 0 books while doing so. Your team is even 2 rogues.

That's just not true

Honestly, theres only 1-3 top tier users for any given class in EU, the servers just kinda dead. So 'only' having 2 isn't anything special. Of course others can use TPs too, but they're far more effective with rogues ability to stealth and return to the fight safely after. If you added a resist skill without heavily nerfing stealth that abuse would be stupidly broken. I mean just imagine giving bd stealth based on their weakness being lack of range/surprise. It'd be busted beyond belief. Also rogues really aren't that paper. If you compare them to other light armor damage classes, like rangers, hunters, seekers, they might even be the tankiest one simply due to reflex.

See? You're just insulting me by calling me stupid and my opinions invalid. Doing the exact thing I said.

Yeah. @Higgings Ignoring this makes me dishonest? There has been 2 coherent ppl who replied, you and pawned. Both of which I read through and answered to your points. But this? What am I supposed to do other than ignore it. Like I'm sorry that someone saying "I play this class, I know better, it's bad", without bothering to explain why they think that doesn't magically make me change my mind.

I was making a point relating to you saying that balance should be done based on the average player, not ppl playing rogue specifically. You're now just cherry picking small segments of my points with the goal of taking them out of the context in which they were made, in order to change that context to whatever fits you, and trying to make the whole point look bad based on the assumption that the full context won't get read. What I was saying, is that balancing things based on the average player is bad. Said nothing about every rogue user being bad, despite you trying to twist it that way. But they do help. In this case they help rogues more than most classes. Enough to make them extremely strong (And competitive against other classes doing the exact same thing) in their area of expertise when used to their full potential. External things, as in things outside of just the base class, are a big part of balancing. Certain buffs and mechanics simply work better with some classes. Sure, giving resist skill to your average rogue who for one reason or another won't use the resources available to them wouldn't be that bad. The problem with doing that, is that it would make the people who do take advantage of these resources absurdly strong. That's why I have an issue with that idea. For example, look at druids tornado. If you have your average druid who doesn't really have books or every possible buff, the skill is annoying, but you most likely can deal with the druid anyway. But then you run into someone like bored, who actually has optimized the class. Now instead of tornado being slightly annoying, it turns into a permanent cc that can control a whole team, while making him borderline unkillable in the process. Now it's a problem. See what I'm trying to say?