vavavi

Dks seem to survive against my bd just fine. 2h ones a are less tanky sure but thats the tradeoff you sign up for not using shield.

You don't, thats the point. Other melee classes aren't able to charge in and tank everything either. Theres a reason guilds rarely accept classes like rogues, reapers, bds or seekers. Every class is supposed to have a weakness.

Rogues, bds, seekers and reapers also only do melee damage, mostly anyway. High bursts of it, but they're unable to just do that freely while being immune and under damage reduction. Also they don't just passively do aoe dmg like eagle does. These classes are balanced in group fights because they are counterable, while chiefs just aren't.

Paladins and dk are tanks, aren't those the exact classes supposed to be there tanking the dmg? Sure, phys chiefs aren't capable of doing anything from far away, but that doesn't mean they're supposed to be tanking all of it either. Same way bds, rogues, seekers, reapers(reapers kinda can with dd) can't just run into the frontline and deal their massive bursts. Chief being able to do equal single target dmg comparable to all those classes, while also doing massive aoe, and being the tank is just plain broken. Imagine if seekers could just run in, survive and constantly slap ppl around with their attack instinct. That would be ridiculously overpowered, much like chiefs are now. Except that chiefs do this aoe passively even if you somehow land a stun through their nearly permanent resist.

Chiefs aren't inherently a frontline class though. They're perfectly capable of hanging in the middle of the pack, casting their high dmg aoe skills. The fact that a low def cloth user class can even play frontline better than tanks designed for it, speaks volumes already about how broken their skill set is.

Orcinus book simply takes the already existing issues to a ridiculous extreme. The issues exist without it too. You cut out the part where i said its at the very least a cycle of permanent resist/dmg reduction. Eu situation is different. The mc side in eu lacks the leadership, unity or just general interest to even try and compete. It ends up being one mc pty with the chieftain wiping the floor with every pty, while elf spam parties avoid it and spam while it's inside arena. You can look at other more active servers and see how it is there. Heres BR server for example.

50% dmg reduction is way too strong. Seekers get that but it's at the cost of -70% max hp. And yet ppl claim they are super tanky. Having these lvls of damage reduction is just too much for a class that can heal and do massive aoe and single target damage.

You're looking at every skill individually. Yes, if you look at one skill or aspect of the class at a time there is no issue. The issue is the combination from all of these. Just having long dmg redu and resist on demand is extremely strong. At the very least that ends in either being permanently immune to stuns, or on massive dmg reduction. Once you add those 2 in combination with the ability to heal (which already interacts way too strongly with resilience relic due to rugged ensuring survivability at those low hps), strong damage, movement speed and having an aoe sap root combo (at -50% dmg/speed its the strongest sap in the game as far as im aware, while being aoe) you end up with an unstoppable force of nature. Like come on, we're talking seeker levels of dmg reduction, sometimes even higher, for 0 cost. To put it in perspective, seekers sacrifice 70% of their max hp to achieve that. On top of that, chiefs have rogue/bd levels of single target burst, with a resist longer than mages all the while having the fastest movement speed in the game. On top of passively applying bleeds to anyone who dares to come close. Then you sprinkle in the strongest aoe sap in the game and add root effect to it, and for funsies add extremely high aoe capability(because why not). All of this on one class. You can't cc them, you can't burst them, you can't even run away from them and you can't even catch them if they find themselves in a risky situations. What's the counter play here? It's way too much for one single class.

You're comparing a DoT skill that takes 5 separate skill uses to setup, and comparing it to a instant damage a skill. Not to mention it also gets ramped up by max mana, reaching higher levels easily. Idk what you're trying to say, 2 completely different skills.

Don't think theres a single elf class that can do everything even close to how chiefs can. Bds have massive dmg and are tanky, being very strong in arenas, but in mass fights they're worthless due to their lack of range and stack resist being only viable with a small amount of cc. Mages are sort of the opposite, they're great in mass fights but lack in single target dmg, making them not ideal for small scale arena fights. Bm is possibly the only class close to as versatile as chiefs are, but most people seem to agree those indeed are broken.

The pve side is a problem too. Like at this point seekers can solo dgs just as fast as other spam parties without a seeker. Either all other damagers need to get a pve buff to be able to atleast compete against seekers, or it should be toned down a bit. Something as simple as making their self buffs last a little less would already balance it alot. Currently excur or however it is spelled lasts like 40+ seconds with continuous relic, making it so that the seeker rarely has to self buff again before everything is dead. Or simply just adjust other classes to be able to match the PvE damage output of the seeker. Personally I don't see any downside to that either, would just make PvE more enjoyable for everyone.

Phys chiefs have extremely high single target burst, idk what this is about. On top of the burst they just also passive apply high damage bleeds to anyone who happens to even get close.

The problem isn't just the resist. Mages have it too, yes, but for one its shorter (no extension from debuff removal) and secondly they don't have everything else chief has. Orci book simply highlights the already existing issue to a ridiculous extreme, the class is just way more versatile than anything else. It just has everything, from dmg reduction to heal to speed to massive dmg in both aoe and single target, all while still having access to a extremely long resist and a magic ban equivalent and for some reason a -50% dmg and speed aoe sap that works like a root. Like, why?. It's like 5 different classes best skills taken and put all into one. There is a reason this class is best in all types of arena, whether its 2v2, 3v3s or higher and gvgs. That's just way too much for one class.

Heal classes are generally meant to be mainly playing a supportive role. They're not meant to be tanks that can run to the frontlines and withstand massive amounts of damage.

Correct me if im wrong, but sanguine protection is a damage reduction skill right? Comparing that to a shield with limited capability isn't exactly a proper comparison. Yes while its true dks aren't the ideal class for gvgs, that same goes for basically every tank. Can't have everything on one class. Also yes, mages magic ban is a hard counter to dks tankyness, but its also basically the only proper counter that elf actually has. Also it's only super effective in a situation where the mage has a partner that is able to even deal the required damage after it has been used. I can't see a mage being able to beat a dk in anything short of atleast a 2v1 situation. Seekers dmg is insane, that much is true, but they don't have that much resist either. The only reaist buff that is in any way viable in arena is their short 8% boost after stealth. Druids i can see being a hard match up for dks, but for them theres also simple counters. A chief for example can simply just remove their heals and leave them extremely vulnerable to just instantly dying, much like what a mage can do to dks defensive skills.

The major differences between shields and a dmg reduction are that every hit, even if not instant dmg lowers them, and correct me if im wrong, the shields don't actually take the characters defense into consideration. So for example a palas shield can be a 10k shield, but its raw 10k dmg, not damage that would be done to the pala through their defenses. As far as i know anyway And yes the 5 stacks would end fast, but only in situations where multiple ppl are targeting the rogue. If 1-2 ppl only target, it does take a while to land 5 instant damage skills/autos, by which time the rogue can just disappear with stealth and renew those stacks. 60% is alot, like really alot, seekers have 55% at 2-3k hp and people say they're extremely tanky. Now having a higher dmg reduction than that with no lower max health really easily takes it overboard. The idea is interesting, and creative, but personally i think if the numbers aren't toned down/something else changed it could really fast turn into rogues taking even lower dmg than seekers and being at 10k hp at the same time. For example making the dmg reduction equal to half of the rogues dodge would be strong, but not borderline immortality.

A dk using 2h isn't supposed to be as tanky as a shield user though. Surely with those gears and books you could easily just use a shield and be extremely tanky. Block is just raw dmg reduction, it's not just the def increase from shield. Dks should lose tankyness the same way wardens and paladins lose alot of theirs for using 2h weapons. In this video your resilience is being lowered by the "wrath of gladiator" skill that is a reward from arena rankings. And fron what i could tell from the video, it got to tick down for a good while, meaning you could have lost as much as 30-40% resi by the time you died, explaining the high damage taken at the end.

Priests don't have a resist skill, or a passive heal, making them just dummies with 0 survivability when stunned. Necros have identical heal/shield with the same talents available, never really ran into an issue with them being too tanky once caught. I'd argue that the thing that makes them really hard to kill off, atleast in a 1v1, is their left side branch talent which removes stuns passively with aura. Similiar to what necros have on their poison shield.

4 or 5x 60% dmg reduction only on instant skills from a skill thats relatively low cd is really strong. With rogues being able to dip in and out of fights very rapidly with stealth this could really easily turn into a case of nearly permanent 60% dmg reduction. Atleast if i understood it correctly as 60% dodge=60% dmg reduction. Thats a higher dmg reduction than seekers have in exchange for -70% of their max hp.

That reflex idea is fun, but it would need some sort of adjustments in my opinion. I'm not sure if you meant for the the 4 second cooldown to begin as the stealth begins (repeatedly leaving only 1 second for anyone to hit the rogue), or if the 4 second cooldown between stealths only starts once the 3 second stealth has ended. Either way, it could become very spammy, especially with current stealth mechanics giving the rogue 2 seconds of untouchability on every stealth. Something that could be interesting with this is removing the 2 second immunity, but adding an ability that removes 1 negative effect every time the rogue stealths. This would leave it vulnerable to some counterplay from DoT damage sources, but would also allow the rogue to more freely use that said stealth, avoiding situations where the passive stealth activates just as you get stunned/silenced, wasting the whole thing. Regardless, interesting idea.

Theres multiple people with all of these books and none of them come even close to the abuse that those examples show. The books aren't the problem.

Obviously not. Which is why chief is a problem.

If the books were the issue, other classes with the same books could do the same, but they can't.

That teleport will still more often than not put them in harms way. And 5 seconds really is not long, its probably not even long enough for the person who died to get their passive skills back up.

For that resist buff on pull seeker would have to lose 30% of its damage. Sure if rogue got 30% dmg taken away for 20% resist for a bit that would be fine. What you we're suggesting here was a raw 50%, yes, 50%, nearly DOUBLE of those 2 combined, with no downside. More reasonable would be for rogue to lose stealth dmg buff completely, even on the first hit, in exchange for 20% resist. That would be in line with your example. Side note: For a seeker to even activate both at the same time, you'd have to come out of stealth, then jump, and then start doing damage, giving up another stun and majority duration of the 8% buff. While also losing 30% dmg.