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Tweaks And Changes Needed For Rogues


Mortynx
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The rogue has a long history in the game of Warspear. From being a pain to deal with before expert skills, to having stacking 100% dodge with absolute reflexes. Yet as the time passed rogue started feeling weaker and weaker. Now it reached the point where rogue is one of the worst playable characters in the entire game along with barbarian. To be honest it's nearly unplayable. Aspecially after the introduction of the new classes. Seeker took over the throne of stealth assasins and rogue was left in the dirt. The game itself is shifting more and more to elf favour, but I'll not get into wider topics.

 

Rogue's gameplay is split into 2 ways: PvP and PvE. Some classes are better at PvP, others better at PvE, but for some reason rogue is chosen to be bad at both.

 

Firstly let's talk about PvP. A PvP rogue is a high risk high reward class with a big skill cap that is supposed to sneak in, deal a massive ammount of damage (not always kill) and sneak out to reset cooldowns and do the same again. With that in mind, rogue is supposed to have low survivability, so if he fails to sneak in or fails to combo his damage, he would get caught by crowd control and dealt with. Yet this concept is poorly put into live action with the mechanics of this game. Rogue lacks burst damage to have a moderate impact to PvP fights. That forces rogue players to focus more on attack speed, which throws away the concept of an assasin and makes rogue feel more like a bruiser or a ranged damage class. Yet a rogue can't be a bruiser because of his low survivability and the class doesn't have range. Stacking dodge chance is the only way to make rogues feel like they are somewhat useful, but in reality it's totaly up to RNG if you survive and even if a rogue survives he still doesn't have enough damage to have any impact. On top of that the rogue feels slow, when you hit from stealth, first it reveals the rogue, then hits. Outside from stealth, a rogue has no other mobility spell to reposition and try to fix mistakes if failed. That makes him an easy target, before he can do anything and as a high skill class a rogue is way too easy to counter. Most of the classes (even full tanks) have much more dps than a rogue and on top of that they are tanky. That should not be a thing. And even if that is a thing, rogue has nothing in his kit to play around those factors. Other dps classes have one or several ways to counter rogue and rogue doesn't have anything to do against that. With all this in mind, rogue class is thrown away from PvP arenas or wars because there are other classes that can do the same as the rogue, but stronger, better and safer.

 

The only thing a rogue is left to do is play as a PvE character. Yet in this enviroment he still lacks everything. As a PvE rogue you are supposed to deal the most damage to monsters while the tank takes all the damage and a healer takes care of the tank. Yet rogue has much lower dps than other damage dealing classes like hunter, ranger, seeker or warlock. Even a well amped tank or a healer can do more damage than a rogue. While boss fighting rogue also has no range and is vurnerable to Area of Effect spells. So the only idea that comes to a player's mind while playing PvE is "Why should I play rogue when other classes do the same, but better?". A rogue is left as a "fill" character to classes that can't find a good damage dealer fast enough or need an extra person for no reason. So rogue is left as a character that is just there in the game, unable to have any impact and all rogue players do are complain about how bad everything is about the class.

 

Probably the most important aspect of a rogue is his skill set and it is disguistingly bad. All the base skills are moderate besides kick in the back, but the expert skills are just stupid. Elusive jump is a gap closing skill with some extra damage to it. 2 things about this skill are very bad. First is the bug that has been there since the appearance of the jump. It's the bug where if you use elusive jump while standing next to an enemy it will throw you 1 to 3 blocks away from the target and you have to walk all the way back. The second thing is the jump's combo with poison blade. If the description is right you have to hit the enemy with poison blades to make him bleed over time, then you need to use elusive jump to deal extra damage. That's completly defeats the whole purpose of elusive jump. If you hit an enemy with poison blades it means you are already next to him and elusive jump is useless as a gap closing skill. On top of that the bug described before takes away a massive ammount of dps while you walk back to the enemy. So in the end the combo is worthless and does nothing, besides losing the purpose of the kit. The two dagger throwing skills are litterally the 2 worst skills in the entire game. The daggers cost gold, they do absolutely no damage and they have no effects applied to them. It's better just to auto attack instead of using the daggers, the dps is just better. Absolute reflexes can't be comboed with your kit in any way and it is totaly up to RNG if the skill will work and it doesn't add up enough dodge to be useful when used in the RNG way. All the other skills just add a little attack speed or damage to the rogue, that can barely be felt and has low impact to the kit.

 

There are many more problems with the class, but the ones described make the biggest impact. The rogue can be fixed with just a few changes. The first to change about the rogues kit is to make him feel more like an assasin. A possible thing to do is to give the rogue a unique passive where he doesn't have the 40% damage decrease from dual wielding, or rogue only has like a 20% decrease. That would impact the damage of his whole kit and make him a more moderate damage dealer. Kick in the back should have lower active time, but could make the enemy have 0% acuraccy (including skills) so you could activate absolute reflexes in a controled way. On top of the dodge, absolute relfexes could give you a buff which if hit by a crowd control ability, would remove the dodge buff, but instantly cleanses the crowd control. Elusive jump should get that bug fixed and get a better combo with poison, for example, if you have poison blade buff active on you, elusive jump deals extra damage equal to one tick of poison damage and the poison would be increased by one tick if activated through elusive jumping. The new skill frenzy is ok, but could also give extra movement speed while active, so if caught, you would die faster, but if not caught, you could reposition easier. Stealth should get more extra damage and firstly hit, then reveal the character. Dagger skills should be completly changed (I feel like my ideas for the rework are too overpowered). Sinister strike should stun for a very short ammount of time (just enough to land an extra skill) or decrease the armour of the enemy and the rogue to 0 for the next attack (debuff works for some seconds or until hit, also having frenzy and this debuff on would cause you to take increased damage, applied along with the armour debuff). Also do not let rogue use mercelines strike from stealth (to avoid too much damage), but slightly increase the damage too. The attack speed would nicely combo with everything. Also rogue should get some sort of a stealth reset mechanic, if done correctly he would become invisible again for a short ammount of time. These changes might make rogue feel more like an assasin and a high skill-cap class. Stealth would be the main thing in rogues kit. While fighting enemies rogue would have to choose: instantly kill the enemy or deal high damage to him with the EXACTLY right combo, or try to use the passive and active skills to try to brawl the fight quickly, because of very low survivability. Using elusive jump and poison combo from stealth and gauge in a fast succesion (only possible if you have the expert attack speed skill active) to deal some damage to the enemy and poison him so you can stealth again (gauge passive: get short stealth if gauged a poisoned enemy) and reposition to continue fighting. Using sinister strike from stealth and then merceliness strike to one shot an enemy, yet that puts you into a bad position and you might die quickly if failed to one shot somebody. With all of this rogue would become a useful, high skill cap champion on PvP, that would have to play around stealth and not get revealed, on top of that it would increase rogue's dps for PvE and make the class one of the most fun classes to play.

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How are rogue and barb almost unplayable

 

rogues are meant to be fast killers and with 5 damage skills, 6 if you include poison blades and some stat improving skills i think it can do this

 

Rogue can get more base damage and dps than hunter,ranger or seeker, only bd can get more damage since they have that ability which increases damage by 4%

 

Every single melee attacker will ha e problems with AoE skills

 

Healer cant do more damage than rogue since rogue usually has more damage and more damaging skill

 

Because of reasons already said rogue aren't fillers for dgs but usually most common damager and possibly the best to deal pure damage

 

 

 

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I don't even know where to start... 

 

 ok l'm gonna ignore every fantasy thing you said in the end, second here are some important info you seemed to miss 

 

-ricochet and steel fury don't use daggers anymore. It's been like 300 years since that

- there are potions that allow anyone and any class to see stealth heros 

- every class has anti rogue- seeker tactic 

- if dps is your thing then you're playing the wrong class ( and game ) 

- if you have +7 gear then you better have dmg accessories or you're useless 

- pvp for rogues is dodge based and thx to point 2 it doesn't matter anymore 

- pve for rogues you need as many guild buffs as you can get and don't go dps build they never work

- frenzy isn't a real skill its active time is a joke and the effect is even a worst joke

 

I don't know when the last time you actually played rogue but you better just make another class 

Edited by Higgings
Please, use normal sized letters
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4 hours ago, Bdsc said:

I don't even know where to start... 

 

 ok l'm gonna ignore every fantasy thing you said in the end, second here are some important info you seemed to miss

 

- ricochet and steel fury don't use daggers anymore. It's been like 300 years since that

- there are potions that allow anyone and any class to see stealth heros 

- every class has anti rogue- seeker tactic 

- if dps is your thing then you're playing the wrong class ( and game ) 

- if you have +7 gear then you better have dmg accessories or you're useless 

- pvp for rogues is dodge based and thx to point 2 it doesn't matter anymore 

- pve for rogues you need as many guild buffs as you can get and don't go dps build they never work

- frenzy isn't a real skill its active time is a joke and the effect is even a worst joke 

I don't know when the last time you actually played rogue but you better just make another class 

Dps builds are working but just for pve and not pvp 

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1 hour ago, Leeon Muller said:

Dps builds are working but just for pve and not pvp 

I think in pve dps build aren't strong enough 

If you have high dps gear you probably don't have enough accuracy and almost no critical 

Hunters pve can be dps build but they can't beat rogues in dmg because rogues have higher dmg and faster CD skills.

 

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I agree. Rogue is least playable nowadays. You got ppl saying rogues are tough, but shit on us everyday. Rogues under lvl 24 are badass, But above.....sucks. I wanted a stun skill like bd hamstring except the stun length wont increase during skill up, only the stun chance (since yall stay whinin rogues are strong with any buff). That frenzy skill is horrible, its almost like the skill doesnt work. At least make frenzy like excerbation or combat stance. Rogue is a nice pve class. But pass lvl 24 there is no rise. Yeah we can hit 1k dmg but whats the good if almost all classes have like 2 extra stun skills and\or hella controlling affects. Our stun (gouge) cant even let us dmg targets while under stun.  Thats exactly what it feels like to be a rogue. Cant no one justify the feeling of being a pve fighter after lvl 24. 

Edited by Tex
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What was all that? :pokerface_2:

 

I played as a rogue for a long time and it is very good in terms of damage.

 

I think the cause of why the other classes seem to have a lot more damage is the rogue's stealth ability: the surprise attack causes a lot of damage instantly, but nothing more, so you can do a lot of damage only if you can use it again - (only with gouge)

 

instead, the hunter and the seeker do not have this problem since their abilities that increase the damage do not have this limitation

 

but there is no need to worry the rogue has a skill that reduces a bit the opponent's armor (a little simple help but something is something xD)


finally I disagree with all you say about the barbarian..

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This might be outdated knowledge, but I just put many oppinions from many players around US and EU servers in one place, only some of the problems and the ideas I mentioned is mine, others came from other players that tend to complain about rogue every so often, and from what I heard hunters easily outdamage rogues in PvE gameplay. My rogue is lvl25 atm with 600+ dmg br set and several decent accesories, but for some reason I feel very weak compared to other classes, aspecially seeker and charmer. Both damage and tankiness wise

 

Game makers do not provide any extra itemazation or skills for rogue to climb past early levels. Relics seem to provide some decent extra stats in combat, but it doesn't feel like rogue has anything else to become stronger afer lvl22-24 and rogue really starts feeling like he has no impact

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On Mon Sep 24 2018 at 3:20 PM, Mortynx said:

This might be outdated knowledge, but I just put many oppinions from many players around US and EU servers in one place, only some of the problems and the ideas I mentioned is mine, others came from other players that tend to complain about rogue every so often, and from what I heard hunters easily outdamage rogues in PvE gameplay. My rogue is lvl25 atm with 600+ dmg br set and several decent accesories, but for some reason I feel very weak compared to other classes, aspecially seeker and charmer. Both damage and tankiness wise

 

Game makers do not provide any extra itemazation or skills for rogue to climb past early levels. Relics seem to provide some decent extra stats in combat, but it doesn't feel like rogue has anything else to become stronger afer lvl22-24 and rogue really starts feeling like he has no impact

 600 is nothing 

I had 600 at some point of my rogue's life but compared to having 1000 it's nothing 

 

I think because mostly rogues skills are average. You can't buy a skill and keep at 1/4 and expect it to be good 

I don't use lvl 1/4 expert skill except poison because it didn't make any difference if you lvl it up before this update and using any other skill would be a waste of Mana and 2 sec CD so that's why rogues seems to be weaker at high lvls 

 

Also I'm used to record the highest dmg in almost any dg run ( even with 3-5 dmgs in the party ) except for few cases so rogue is currently the highest dmg dealer in mc side 

 

Hunters are good dmgers but they can't beat rogues unless they have higher amp or better suited build for the dg 

 

Also stay away from atk speed builds for rogues

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