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Gladiator

Pre-made Arena parties... Thoughts?

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Hi everyone!

So the recent update with the new maps and new items in the AP shop, and the previous Arena-related update really helped keeping Arena alive.

Especially remarkable is the matchmaking and rating system that we've seen couple of months ago. They tried to fix the issue with cheating by making organised win-lose parties, and thus winning an Arena season, and they introduced that match-making system. Which gave me a feeling that they actually wanted that this cheating ends.

But here is the bad news, people figured out a new way to cheat their way into winning the season. The match making system wouldn't match 2 groups if one group seemed dominant on the other. By making the spams between the 2 groups a one lose one win spam, they succeeded with "tricking" the system.

Now here is the problem:

People who win the season are purely planned from the beginning. It goes something like: "Hey, I'll take this season 3v3, and you take the next" and "we agreed that you take 2v2 and I take 5v5 and the next season otherwise" and in weird cases "hey why you block me? I thought I win this season".

And this is not fine... It feels like all I need to win is register my name in the winning list and wait for my season, and of course, have gold and friends to help me win and lose to them.

It might not seem as bad if you ignore the fact that most of the times you'd see them planned parties in Arena, and you, as a random guy demanding, would have no chance to win, and that's even if you actually get matched. Arena is at the moment is a place for planned spams, otherwise you can't get matched, you can't even demand, you know you'll lose. A big example is 5v5, Idk how it is in other servers, but in US, it is very inactive and only planned win lose parties are there.

 

So what's the solution? If devs wanna end this, they gotta do something. Let's discuss in the comments (devs/mods are absolutely welcome) and I will start by suggesting the following:

Remove pre-planned parties in Arena once and for all. So you can't demand Arena while in party. "Action is not available in party". I don't know if it was discussed before, but didn't see any topic about it (At least not like this dedicated one).

Now, of course like we all know, every time there is a suggestion/complain, there must be some arguments with it so it is not considered whining, so let's begin.

 

-Advantages:

1- Matchmaking system can't be "tricked". You can't plan who is with you and who is against you. Which results in advantage #2.

2- The winners would actually deserve their reward, they'd work hard for it, because they'd actually fight, and then deserve this significant reward they get, that they're getting now for almost nothing.

3- because of #1, people will be more encouraged to demand, because they always have a chance to win = less inactivity in Arena.

4- More people will have a chance to win a season. If devs do that, they could eventually add more rewarding spots, top 10? It will be harder indeed to get there, that's why it makes sense that more people could be rewarded. top 3 as the current #1, #4 and 5 as the current #2 and 3, #6-10 as the current #4 and 5. #1 could also rewarded with something bigger as 2 and 3 for sure. I have problem with that, but at least people who got there deserve it.

5- From devs point of view, it is more profitable, since it would take more to win.*

 

-Disadvantages:

1- Sadly for the people who are used to getting easy season wins, they will work harder now.

 

* You'd argue against that to be more Pay-to-win. And that it would take too much gold/mcoins to win a reward, well, that's the case now, but it takes 0 effort in winning fights.

I'd rather see people winning pay more and deserve the prize. Remember the strength of those gears that people win.

You'd also argue against it to be more time consuming (No-life), well, still better than getting such a huge advantage for, as I said, 0 effort in winning fights.

 

But if you still think it'd be too much work for the gears, then check this out. To balance everything out:

With this no pre-made party system, more people could be rewarded, since it is now harder. Moreover, the top 10 people will not be related to each other, as it is now. It wouldn't make sense to have 10 people rewarded now because the top 10 maybe even 100 are all involved in planned pre-made lose-win parties. But since the top 10 would be completely unrelated (Each one spammed on his own), top 10 could be rewarded.

In addition to that, devs could make the seasons shorter from 2 to 1 month maybe or 6 weeks. Again, gives more chances to more people, and less work. But at least some work, unlike now.

 

FAQ: Questions that nobody asked, but I'll answer anyway.

 

Q: The winners will be those who paid and spammed the most, or what do you think?

A: Not necessarily, winning a lot against real people should be also taken into consideration. Also that's just the case now, so what's your point?

 

Q: What happens to people who already won all armor parts or some parts, and just need one or two pieces to complete the set, do you think it's fair now?

A: If he can get the rest, then he's a good Arena player and he deserved it ;)

 

Q: A big aspect in the game is playing with guild and friends, how can guildmates and friends play arena together now?

A: Good question. They could still demand together and possibly match each other in the same team or the other. I know it is a sad thing, but cheaters winning is really sadder. 

 

Q: Why not just keep everything as it is now?

A: Seriously dude, after everything I said? Arena will be more fun without pre-made parties, and rewarding will be fair and to the people who deserved.

 

Q: I think you'd have a different opinion if you won some armors.

A: What if I told you, I'd think of going if this idea is taken into consideration, or cheating is stopped somehow. That's the Gladiator's way, after all, fight and win fair.

It is more than easy to get a reward now, you just need time. Not even much gold by the way, because it will pay off if you buy items in the AP shop and resell for gold. But I didn't go for a rank because it is ridiculous, and I'm against this fun-ruining system.

How is that a question anyway?

 

So that was it for me, thank you for stopping by to read my longass topic once again.

Let's discuss this, opinions and suggestions are welcome. And devs' thoughts on the whole issue of cheating and how to solve are surely appreciated.

Edited by Gladiator

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1) Im impressed by the fact u thought about so many aspects of the things and tried to introduce all issues with different point of view. Very very clear post, u got really interesting points (i guess u thought about it quite a bit). Thank you for that:good::clapping:

 

2)I will answer tomorrow im tired and with all points developped here i need some time to think XD:tongue:

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Q: Why not just keep everything as it is now?

A: Seriously dude, after everything I said? Arena will be more fun without pre-made parties, and rewarding will be fair and to the people who deserved.

 

 

Heheheheh funniest :P

 

I agree, remove the premade parties once and for all ^^ and let only random match making happen and make it spicy abit with another option (mc and elf can team up :P)

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I agree completely with Gladiator suggestion :good: 

Arena in its current state is very hostile for a casual player who just wants to have some fun and earn some AP in process for his/her/apache's gears. Queues are long and some brackets are completely deserted.

 

Couple of suggestions I wanted to add since this topic might gain traction:

 

# Bring back the 3v3 in all it's old glory. But without the rewards for top rank. All the brackets in arena are currently dominated by the same players, in same party, from same guilds fighting for top rank rewards. No casual player stands a chance against them. 5v5 is completely deserted, at least in US-sapphire or you meet OP party in seals. Since top rank arena rewards (which is the root cause of miserable traffic) will not be removed. This addition (coupled with the original suggestion) could become the most fair and fun arena for the more casual player.

 

# Limit the use of seals:

Temple of seals is by the far the most exhilarating arena experience where actual strategy is involved and coordination is the key to win. But in the present moment whoever keeps spamming revive seals till the end, wins. Players just die, revive (because they can and they do) and start charging into the fray like maniacs without thinking. Limiting the use of seals will actually make player value their lives in arena. This also takes the  advantage out of the player's hand who has the resources for unlimited revives and levels the playing field.

 

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This might create a better opportunity for those players who couldn't compete for rank as they weren't the part of the plan. :drinks: 

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1 hour ago, Bladesharp said:

# Limit the use of seals:

Temple of seals is by the far the most exhilarating arena experience where actual strategy is involved and coordination is the key to win. But in the present moment whoever keeps spamming revive seals till the end, wins. Players just die, revive (because they can and they do) and start charging into the fray like maniacs without thinking. Limiting the use of seals will actually make player value their lives in arena. This also takes the  advantage out of the player's hand who has the resources for unlimited revives and levels the playing field.

 

Yes, seals are a whole different issue, that's making Arena less fun. I'm disappointed they didn't fix anything about them in the latest update.

It should be limited as you said, or the value of its usage should be cut. So that normal revive with wait goes with full HP and instant revive with half. Because instant revive AND full HP while the one who waits gets 50% HP seems too much of advantage and leaves no chance for those who don't spam them seals. And for someone who plays Arena for AP and fun, life seals just ruin everything.

Edited by Gladiator

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I like it. Could work and increase the competitiveness. At least in higher levels. Of course 10 people could just demand and let the team with 1 specific guy win by afking in arena and making it 5v3 or something like that. But at least it would be harder and some randoms would also get a win.:good:

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14 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Hey, I'll take this season 3v3, and you take the next" and "we agreed that you take 2v2 and I take 5v5 and the next season otherwise"

 

14 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Remove pre-planned parties in Arena once and for all. So you can't demand Arena while in party

This makes a lot of sense.

 

When I last talked about this in world chat, a couple of players suggested I go find some resourceful friends instead of whining.

 

Atm I'm finding it hard to blend in with the English ppl in my server (who choose the winners of a season). So until they quit or lvlup, It's practically impossible for me to win even the #3 rewards let alone the top prize.

 

I hope the developers appreciate this thread and understand that this issue is as annoying as botting.

 

 

Edited by Pixel

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It wouldn't make sense to have 10 people rewarded now. devs could make the seasons shorter from 2 to 1 month maybe or 6 weeks. Again, gives more chances to more people, and less work.

 

more people could be rewarded. top 3 as the current #1, #4 and 5 as the current #2 and 3, #6-10 as the current #4 and 5. 

 

I dunno abt the part with more winners, Wouldn`t be that rare then and if you combine that with shorter seasons. We would have around 108 completed sets of #1 reward and 72 completed #2 rewards yearly together through lvl 20-28 brackets. 

 

Save top 5 system, #1 get #1 and so on as it is, but make the season shorter.  1 month seasons would be 36 #1 rewards,  72 #2-3 rewards. lvl 20-28 brackets. Becuse to many rewards at one brackets would make everyone have it.

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2 hours ago, Lazylion said:

I dunno abt the part with more winners, Wouldn`t be that rare then and if you combine that with shorter seasons. We would have around 108 completed sets of #1 reward and 72 completed #2 rewards yearly together through lvl 20-28 brackets. 

 

Save top 5 system, #1 get #1 and so on as it is, but make the season shorter.  1 month seasons would be 36 #1 rewards,  72 #2-3 rewards. lvl 20-28 brackets. Becuse to many rewards at one brackets would make everyone have it.

I don't think it'd be that common to have a full set at all, at least more people will get chances to get them. Remember that due to more people being able to be part of fighting for the top ranks, people won't guarantee a full set in 4 or 5 consecutive seasons like now, it will take a bit more hard work. So your numbers won't be realized.

Also I don't know why you added lvl20-28 brackets together too, they don't have anything to do with each other. And those numbers are yearly? How many level up caps would be added by that time :p This should be taken into consideration too. I mean it should be a little bit faster and for more people so that they can get a set before having to level up.

I don't think it'd be common as you said, remember that no one can guarantee his spot for saying "I wanna win the next season" before others.

I think it'd be important to add more rewarding spots with everyone having his ranks independently without pre-decided winning. Otherwise it would actually take way too long to complete a set, if it would be even possible during a year. Think about that each piece of gear doesn't come up every season, but every 4, so if you missed one, you gotta wait.

Really all the results of no pre-made parties is more people being able to win, and win fair and more fun fights for random people.

Anyways it is up do devs to decide whether to increase rewarding spots or not, more important is the idea that there should be no pre-made parties in Arena.

6 hours ago, kimkaa said:

Of course 10 people could just demand and let the team with 1 specific guy win by afking in arena and making it 5v3 or something like that. But at least it would be harder and some randoms would also get a win.:good:

You can't guarantee yourself being on a specific team with and against specific people that you would wanna help win. I think matching is pretty random.

Edited by Gladiator

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54 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

I don't think it'd be that common to have a full set at all, at least more people will get chances to get them. Remember that due to more people being able to be part of fighting for the top ranks, people won't guarantee a full set in 4 or 5 consecutive seasons like now, it will take a bit more hard work. So your numbers won't be realized.

Also I don't know why you added lvl20-28 brackets together too, they don't have anything to do with each other. And those numbers are yearly? How many level up caps would be added by that time :p This should be taken into consideration too. I mean it should be a little bit faster and for more people so that they can get a set before having to level up.

I don't think it'd be common as you said, remember that no one can guarantee his spot for saying "I wanna win the next season" before others.

I think it'd be important to add more rewarding spots with everyone having his ranks independently without pre-decided winning. Otherwise it would actually take way too long to complete a set, if it would be even possible during a year. Think about that each piece of gear doesn't come up every season, but every 4, so if you missed one, you gotta wait.

Really all the results of no pre-made parties is more people being able to win, and win fair and more fun fights for random people.

Anyways it is up do devs to decide whether to increase rewarding spots or not, more important is the idea that there should be no pre-made parties in Arena.

You can't guarantee yourself being on a specific team with and against specific people that you would wanna help win. I think matching is pretty random.

 

I took lvl 20-28 becuse of rings, amu and cloak %. Even with lvl 20 rewards a lvl 28 can be op asf.

 

And more than lvl 30 in this game would ruin it. Would take way to long for ppl to gather the reputation for dgs and the items would costs millions of gold to buy + amp.

 

Have u taken into consideration that a guild or a big group can get together and demand. When they meet the guy who pay em the tiks to win and they lose, they loose and if the ``winner`` goes up against ``lose``+ random, the ``lose`` just afk to make ``winner`` win.

 

Ppl will always find a way to trick the system. But don`t take me wrong, it is a good idea you have. But it need to be talked through and fix some

things.

Edited by Lazylion

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57 minutes ago, Lazylion said:

Have u taken into consideration that a guild or a big group can get together and demand. When they meet the guy who pay em the tiks to win and they lose, they loose and if the ``winner`` goes up against ``lose``+ random, the ``lose`` just afk to make ``winner`` win.

 

Ppl will always find a way to trick the system. But don`t take me wrong, it is a good idea you have. But it need to be talked through and fix some

things.

Well, there will always be random people, that are out of the play, and that could ruin their plans, or at least make it harder. Considering a 1 hour spam, I don't think they will pull off many planned wins if enough random people demand.

Still in my opinion not a reason not to remove pre-made parties, which is the main idea of the topic, not specifically the rewards.

And of course, I'm open to any ideas and thoughts, that's the point of creating the topic.

Edited by Gladiator

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good idea, unfortunately it likely won't be happen  soon . . . forever   98% won't hapen

 

Edited by Jzargo

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-It is annoying not to be able to go arena with friends anymore. Having good team strat was nice. But i agree it will be more fun bcs those +10 pt are just arena farm and other don't even get a chance, some fo my partners often don't even fight

 

-Im not sure adding rewards to 10 first will be good. Sure more ppl would be interested in arena fights, just like in guild tournaments, if there is more reward slots. But 5 could be a maximum, for now at least. Perhaps  #1 get greatness and armor, #2 and #3 greatness, #4 and #5 contender, but not more than arena buff for rank 6-10.

 

- i totally agree season is too long. u need max 2 weeks of spam to reach the rank u want, then nothing happens. 1 month would be way better. even 6 week is too long.

But if u make seasons shorter+add rewards many ppl would get them. I personnaly prefer not to change rewards but make 1 month arena season

 

-The 5v5 arena would be totally dead. Today it only works with pre-made arena pt with tickets of the one who want rank.

Perhaps add more ap gain in 5v5 for ppl to get more interested in going 5v5 + disable all arena demand will help.

Also could increase lvl range but with a system limiting the difference between the sum of the lvls of the 2 pts

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Let's leave the reward thing for devs to decide how it's best balanced.

The main idea of the topic is pre-made parties.

 

Anyways, I have an idea , which could compliment the removal of pre-made parties.

Which is changing the ranking system altogether. And make it to where if you win, you get ranking points, if you lose, you lose ranking points. BAM! screw you win-losers.

Though don't confuse ranking points with Arena points, you'd still get arena points as normal, but right now, you ranking points are your arena points.

Edited by Gladiator

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On 06/05/2017 at 0:06 AM, Gladiator said:

Let's leave the reward thing for devs to decide how it's best balanced.

The main idea of the topic is pre-made parties.

 

Anyways, I have an idea , which could compliment the removal of pre-made parties.

Which is changing the ranking system altogether. And make it to where if you win, you get ranking points, if you lose, you lose ranking points. BAM! screw you win-losers.

Though don't confuse ranking points with Arena points, you'd still get arena points as normal, but right now, you ranking points are your arena points.

This is interesting.

 

But i think spam is not all about win lose.

Moreover with free tickets u'll always find ppl. I do it myself with my mage in 5v5 when i got nothing to do, but we don't even need win-lose: last time we fought 45 times in 1hour, without winning once: i think just the fact u fight and dmg-kill some of ur opponents make u considered not like a bot loser :/

 

Still i would like that ranking system to be implemented bcs with it u won't be able to win a season with 50% lose anymore. Only the best will win.

 

This+remove pre made arena parties will be great. And i think devs will benefit it too since u'll need to be really high amped to win a season and the challenge will make ppl fight more and not just set everything with their friend.

 

 

 

As i said before, i think a system to ease access to 5v5 should be added too.

With all these changes im sure arena would be really more interesting

 

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2 hours ago, Pecleb said:

But i think spam is not all about win lose.

Moreover with free tickets u'll always find ppl. I do it myself with my mage in 5v5 when i got nothing to do, but we don't even need win-lose: last time we fought 45 times in 1hour, without winning once: i think just the fact u fight and dmg-kill some of ur opponents make u considered not like a bot loser :/

 

Your team must've sucked lel.

Spam isn't about win-lose, but only win-losers win the seasons. Solution? Make them actually lose when losing!

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41 minutes ago, Gladiator said:

Your team must've sucked lel.

Spam isn't about win-lose, but only win-losers win the seasons. Solution? Make them actually lose when losing!

XD yes the win pt was full +9/10 we had no chance. But we had litteraly no delay in demand and i guess it was bcs we fought. Usually when we don't we got veeryy long delay

 

Yes i agree that losing shouldn't be awarded by rank! I have no experience of lvl 28 but at other lvls i see that most of the times season winners got 80-90% win. As long as they will give free ticks for lose pt they will find ppl (me sometimes... 1h lvl 18 5v5 lose=600 free ap) who want just ap and don't care about rank.

 

Im 100% for ur last proposal i just think it will solve few things only: for me the efficient way to counter noob spam for rank is to remove pre-made pts, as u suggested it.

 

But if u remove pre-made parties, there won't be win-lose anymore anyway. So except the need to be a really good fighter and not just to spam 10 times more than the others to win a season i don't think this change will have a big impact. Nethertheless since i don't see any drawbacks of this ranking system for the moment, but only good things, i support it for slightly the changes are!

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