I don't want to give any other specific suggestions here. I just want to remind you that this year has marked the peak of use and abuse of control effects in the game. Many new talents, books, and even items were created around control effects.

 

You can't argue that these items can help rogue because remember these are classless and if it can be used by anyone, it doesn't give any edge to rogue. It just makes classes with control solutions more resistant to controls.

 

This class is dead once some classes have benefits using or against controls.

 

Rogue is not

 

1. A class with resistance skill or talent

2. A class with huge healing or shield or defence to afford getting controlled multiple times

3. A class with ranged attacks to delay receiving attacks by using distance

4. A class with heavy mm which grants control removal every 6 sec. when hp is less than 50% which also increases max HP for classes with thick HP and defence

5. A class with continuous controls which only needs to cast control once to continue controlling enemies

6. A class with summon(s) to keep attacking enemies while controlled.

 

Everything other classes are, rogue aren't. We don't have solution, this class is not scalable with books against similarly booked other classes. We are so done.

 

I don't care how you are planning to revive this class to its former glory anymore because I personally can't keep up with new changes that always seem to give zero benefit for rogue relative to other classes. I don't know what to suggest in this short amount of time with all new things considered.

 

I just want to focus on control effect because it is the most obvious one. There are others pointing out what else need to be fixed in rogue. Please pay attention and consider them all!

Rogues have the ability to perma stun. They also have a ranged stun, jump and invisibility to work against cc/range. Also reflex is virtually a passive shield, one that activates despite being cced, same way mages barrier is.

 

That's a lot of intentional exaggeration in one post. Not to mention the rhetoric of "if this thing that helps is allowed for anyone else it stops being a solution". Like what is that.

Edited December 7, 20241 yr by vavavi

5 minutes ago, vavavi said:

That's a lot of intentional exaggeration in one post.

I agree, you did it perfectly as usual.

Just now, Toad Sage said:

I agree, you did it perfectly as usual.

Everything I said exists though and you're saying it doesn't.

11 minutes ago, vavavi said:

Also reflex is virtually a passive shield, one that activates despite being cced, same way mages barrier is

I will give you one response and then stop talking to you because you always repeat the same mistakes which at this point I believe to be intentional.

 

First of all, my points were about control. Not damage. Sure, reflexes activates when controlled. But that's not what I was talking about. I didn't talk about surviving one hit when controlled.

 

Secondly, sure, it works like Mage's barrier. Why mages have resist skill and we don't then. Does that make the result the same for them to be comparable? What kind of logic is that.

 

And no, stealth is not a solution to control. Maybe seeker's is. Rogue's isn't. So it doesn't exist as a solution for controls. Doesn't matter if it exists for other reasons as long as not for overcoming controls.

 

You seem to lack ability to make comparison which I will give you an optimistic opinion, maybe you pretend to be that way because you just have malicious intent. So, have fun.

 

Also, it doesn't matter to me if they decide to close the game let alone if they just want to kill rogue class. I genuinely want rogues be alive again. But if they mess up this year, it will be fantastic since finally I won't have to see this type of conversation again which completely stuns me by how much you can un-use logic.

29 minutes ago, Toad Sage said:

I will give you one response and then stop talking to you because you always repeat the same mistakes which at this point I believe to be intentional.

Pointing out things that exist is not malicious. Trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you as evil on the other hand, is malicious.

 

29 minutes ago, Toad Sage said:

First of all, my points were about control. Not damage. Sure, reflexes activates when controlled. But that's not what I was talking about. I didn't talk about surviving one hit when controlled.

 

Secondly, sure, it works like Mage's barrier. Why mages have resist skill and we don't then. Does that make the result the same for them to be comparable? What kind of logic is that.

It's not only one hit though. It's infinite hits for that duration. And given the nature of rogues, that ability will be available the majority of the time they first get stunned.

 

Mages have resist skill, you have stealth.

29 minutes ago, Toad Sage said:

And no, stealth is not a solution to control. Maybe seeker's is. Rogue's isn't. So it doesn't exist as a solution for controls. Doesn't matter if it exists for other reasons as long as not for overcoming controls.

 

You seem to lack ability to make comparison which I will give you an optimistic opinion, maybe you pretend to be that way because you just have malicious intent. So, have fun.

Stealth quite literally makes it impossible for you to be targeted by any skills that require a target. You can't click a rogue thats invisible. That goes for damage skills, saps, and cc. Therefore you physically can't cast targeted CC on them. How is a skill, that makes the majority of cc in the game literally impossible to be used on you, not a solution?

 

Stealth is extremely strong. It's full immunity from damage, saps, stuns, silences, anything that requires targeting, on top of being able to evade and catch people off guard. This ability comes with 0 effort, aside from using the skill itself, from the player. The only thing that can be hit on a stealthed enemy are AoE skills. Only AoE skills have the additional skill requirement of being able to dodge them, which is completely dependant on the abilities of the player and their opposition.

 

If you genuinely believe that complete immunity from the majority of skills in THE ENTIRE GAME is not a solution to cc, I don't know what to tell you.

Edited December 7, 20241 yr by vavavi

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

Rogues have the ability to perma stun

Error 404, Perma stun does not exist in current meta.
Anyone who gets perma-stunned right now is a noob.

 

5 hours ago, Toad Sage said:

Everything other classes are, rogue aren't. We don't have solution, this class is not scalable with books against similarly booked other classes. We are so done.

Though I don't understand why you focussed on control aspect in rogue topic? Rogue concept was never a control style class no? It would take Miracle level buffs to take rogue out of the gutter it's in right now. 
 

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

It's not only one hit though. It's infinite hits for that duration

 

How many hits realistically you can receive in those 0.8s ? 

Since the last year i have not notice to dodge more than 1-2 hits at a time from multiple people (maybe few BDs using hurricane, but those are special people which are just smashing their heads on keyboard)

 

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

And given the nature of rogues, that ability will be available the majority of the time they first get stunned.

Nature of Rogues is the moment you get stunned you are dead. 

 

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

Stealth quite literally makes it impossible for you to be targeted by any skills that require a target. You can't click a rogue thats invisible. That goes for damage skills, saps, and cc. Therefore you physically can't cast targeted CC on them. How is a skill, that makes the majority of cc in the game literally impossible to be used on you, not a solution?

 

- There are Detection pots, Mages with skills. 

- AOE damage, AOE stuns where in arena / open world / GvGs / Mass fights you cannot avoid. Its safe to say there are there are way more "- situations" than a "+ situations" as a Stealth user (Rogue).

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

Stealth is extremely strong. It's full immunity from damage, saps, stuns, silences, anything that requires targeting, on top of being able to evade and catch people off guard.

 

True, and i agree but at most in 1v1 situations. other than that there are always AOEs around or bleeds applied to you. So besides 1v1 and open world hunting low lvl or pve players, there your Immunity ends.

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

This ability comes with 0 effort, aside from using the skill itself, from the player.

 

If it was was ability ala "0 effort" it would be looking like Druids tornado or BDs Hurricane skill. Its quite opposite for rogue, because while those 2 classes have to use 1 skill and not bother about anything else, for rogue clicking Stealth is just a beginning.

47 minutes ago, TheCaster said:

Though I don't understand why you focussed on control aspect in rogue topic? Rogue concept was never a control style class no? It would take Miracle level buffs to take rogue out of the gutter it's in right now. 

Let's say I don't want to let control aspect slip this year. And I trust others to give their best solutions in other aspects. I believe it is better this way rather than everyone speaking about everything all the time.

 

Also, I agree that rogue is not a control style class. I only mentioned a continuous cc combo because I argue that it can count as a solution against controls. Something rogue doesn't have just to solidify the point that other classes have their own solutions except rogue. Even the control classes can fight controls better.

 

And also, I agree I still can't imagine how they will fix rogue at this point. But let's see.

22 hours ago, vavavi said:

Stealth quite literally makes it impossible for you to be targeted by any skills that require a target. You can't click a rogue thats invisible. That goes for damage skills, saps, and cc. Therefore you physically can't cast targeted CC on them. How is a skill, that makes the majority of cc in the game literally impossible to be used on you, not a solution?

This is the most dumbest thing ever lol detect pots exist like hello?? And literally many classes have skills that reveal rogue easily and this whole point is irrelevant anyway becs being hidden ≠ usefulness. NOT TO MENTION Rogue can be invincible and STILL get cc'ed. This is not even debatable. Do you just want this class to be non usable ?! It's in the worst state possible, its ridiculous how people can still come here being so misinformed about a class

 

Rogue has to have some resist effect at some point, i totally agree and everyone with an ounce of brain can see that. The game is full of cc nowadays and majority of classes have resistance ability in some way. The ones that dont are ranged which gives them the benefit of distance. This is just the state of the game right now. If resist wont be added to rogue, then his survivability and usefulness has to be compensated in other forms. Could be aoe debuffs, walking speed, better defense/heal 

4 hours ago, Shax said:

This is the most dumbest thing ever lol detect pots exist like hello?? And literally many classes have skills that reveal rogue easily and this whole point is irrelevant anyway becs being hidden ≠ usefulness. NOT TO MENTION Rogue can be invincible and STILL get cc'ed. This is not even debatable. Do you just want this class to be non usable ?! It's in the worst state possible, its ridiculous how people can still come here being so misinformed about a class

That isn't being misinformed. While you are invisible majority of the skills in the game physically cannot be cast on you, making you immune from them. Obviously some counters exist. Can you Imagine having full immunity from what, 80% of the skills in the game, without any counter? That would be crazy.

 

3 hours ago, Shax said:

Rogue has to have some resist effect at some point, i totally agree and everyone with an ounce of brain can see that. The game is full of cc nowadays and majority of classes have resistance ability in some way. The ones that dont are ranged which gives them the benefit of distance. This is just the state of the game right now. If resist wont be added to rogue, then his survivability and usefulness has to be compensated in other forms. Could be aoe debuffs, walking speed, better defense/heal 

They really don't, they already have stealth. Honestly, ppl seem to not only want rogues to always be the first person to engage thanks to stealth, but also for them to be immune during the time they're at all vulnerable. Thats crazy. I guess you could make a talent that removes stealth and replaces it with a strong resist skill. I doubt anyone of you who keep saying stealth isn't strong would use that for long though.

 

12 hours ago, pawned said:

 

How many hits realistically you can receive in those 0.8s ? 

Since the last year i have not notice to dodge more than 1-2 hits at a time from multiple people (maybe few BDs using hurricane, but those are special people which are just smashing their heads on keyboard)

 

Nature of Rogues is the moment you get stunned you are dead. 

 

 

- There are Detection pots, Mages with skills. 

- AOE damage, AOE stuns where in arena / open world / GvGs / Mass fights you cannot avoid. Its safe to say there are there are way more "- situations" than a "+ situations" as a Stealth user (Rogue).

 

True, and i agree but at most in 1v1 situations. other than that there are always AOEs around or bleeds applied to you. So besides 1v1 and open world hunting low lvl or pve players, there your Immunity ends.

 

If it was was ability ala "0 effort" it would be looking like Druids tornado or BDs Hurricane skill. Its quite opposite for rogue, because while those 2 classes have to use 1 skill and not bother about anything else, for rogue clicking Stealth is just a beginning.

First of all yea, some counters exist, begause they have to. If stealth is left completely unchecked it just breaks everything. Even with detect pots and aoes you can run a naked rogue around arena and just avoid anyone being able to hit you for the whole fight. 

 

Also there is no such thing as unavoidable AoE in stealth. Whether or not you get caught by AoEs is completely dependant on the decisions and skill of the rogue and the person using the aoes. Especially now since you have immunity from being revealed instantly.

 

Stealth is 0 effort. All you have to is click it and people literally can't target you. Dodging AoEs is the only effort thats required, and even that comes with big rewards when done right.

Edited December 7, 20241 yr by vavavi

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

Stealth is 0 effort. All you have to is click it and people literally can't target you

What in the heck does that do to make the class playable? What is staying in stealth hiding like you suggesting does for this class or the situation? So essentially all you said was:

-in wars, arena, dg, gvgs rogue is supposed press stealth and hide. 

What the hell is this argument even

 

You also just repeated the same thing u said which is not true at all. You WILL get caught in cc while invincible, 99% of times you will, its almost no point arguing against this because its just facts and people know this, seekers even know this lol. And it has absolutely no association to how much a rogue is skilled, rogue is as soon caught in cc, its over. There is no resistance to save u from that nor stable defense to tank anything. No reflex isn't saving u from cc, it has 4 sec cd you are dead in 2-3 secs 

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

Even with detect pots and aoes you can run a naked rogue around arena and just avoid anyone being able

Ah yes because the game is meant to be played like that

 

JuSt StaY hiddEN bRO 

 

 

4 hours ago, vavavi said:

Can you Imagine having full immunity from what, 80% of the skills in the game, without any counter? That would be crazy.

Immunity? Lmao stealth isn't immunity whatsoever its being out of target for people to hit you but the part you're deliberately leaving out is rogue has to come out of stealth eventually lol theres no situation in warspear in which rogue is supposed to stay in stealth and that somehow solves that situation, you are just invisible thats it. and this is ignoring that:

- Literally anyone can pop a detect pot and your "major" skill is no longer useful

-more than 50% of classes have detect skills or aoe which reveals rogue

Rogue has absolutely no use in 99% of scenarios and this has been going on for not 1, not 2 but many years now, its state is horrendous and is a F tier class by every metric and any tier list made, even devs know, its why we starting to see tease of buffs about rogue. You'd have to be reallyyyyyy not paying attention or just biased for some odd reason becs its really not necessary, we're all playing the same game and if a class sucks, it just sucks no matter which side you are legion/sentinel you have to say it like it is

29 minutes ago, Shax said:

You'd have to be reallyyyyyy not paying attention or just biased for some odd reason becs its really not necessary, we're all playing the same game and if a class sucks, it just sucks no matter which side you are legion/sentinel you have to say it like it is

In case anyone forgot, Vava's views on rogue can be summarized as:

 

1. Yes rogue has disadvantages in the new gameplay nowadays

2. No rogue doesn't need to be buffed. Instead, devs should make a new content where this disadvantaged, disabled, and disliked class can shine.

 

I have given up any discussion with him because even if you repeatedly demonstrate how bad rogue's current situation is, he will return to the 2 points mentioned earlier. But maybe we still benefit from exposing him. Maybe devs will see how much the other side try to supress our revival because I didn't see him defend barb's good condition the way he defends rogue's disabled condition. This dude is not genuinely defending status quo. He just doesn't want legion get stronger even tho that would mean a more balanced game.

I dont get how stealth is a good "anti cc" skill just bcz you cant be targeted...

 

While in stealth, every aoe dmg/cc affects you, not mention those castle potions that Reveals invisible targets.

 

Stealth doesn't work like that and im sure nobody with that skill would use it that way, and specifically to "avoid" cc..

indeed, in order to "avoid" control with stealth, the only way is just stop playing in middle of fight..

Enemies arent idiots, ofc someone is going to save a stun or any defensive skill when rogue in stealth dare to do  their move.

 

Stealth works greatly if you take some idiot offguard , but if there is an opponent Conscious that you're there , You can't afford to play with his mind, the skill existence becomes merely the  dmg buff and nothing more.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by Fynn

The skill literally makes you untargetable by anything that requires a target. It allows you to pick and choose where and when you fight. It allows you to go in and out of fights unlike any other class apart from seeker can. 

 

How is this not anti cc? Have you not played a class without stealth? You can't walk around and be undetected, theres no escaping a commitment to a fight, theres no dodging initial AoE or ranged damage if you want to get close, you dont get to watch and wait for an opportunity that freely. You will be seen, people will be ready for you to engage and you will be targeted by stuns and damage alike. It's obviously anti cc alongside everything else. How is that even a debate?

 

You can't possibly think that having a resist skill+stealth without some major nerfs to stealth is in any way reasonable. You're literally untargetable for the majority of the time. And you're asking to be unstunnable for the time you're not? That's crazy.

 

 

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi

6 hours ago, Fynn said:

I dont get how stealth is a good "anti cc" skill just bcz you cant be targeted...

 

While in stealth, every aoe dmg/cc affects you, not mention those castle potions that Reveals invisible targets.

 

Stealth doesn't work like that and im sure nobody with that skill would use it that way, and specifically to "avoid" cc..

indeed, in order to "avoid" control with stealth, the only way is just stop playing in middle of fight..

Enemies arent idiots, ofc someone is going to save a stun or any defensive skill when rogue in stealth dare to do  their move.

 

Stealth works greatly if you take some idiot offguard , but if there is an opponent Conscious that you're there , You can't afford to play with his mind, the skill existence becomes merely the  dmg buff and nothing more.

Being unable to dodge AoE effectively while invisible is quite literally a skill issue. It is completely reliant on the stealth users ability.

 

7 hours ago, Shax said:

What in the heck does that do to make the class playable? What is staying in stealth hiding like you suggesting does for this class or the situation? So essentially all you said was:

-in wars, arena, dg, gvgs rogue is supposed press stealth and hide. 

What the hell is this argument even

 

You also just repeated the same thing u said which is not true at all. You WILL get caught in cc while invincible, 99% of times you will, its almost no point arguing against this because its just facts and people know this, seekers even know this lol. And it has absolutely no association to how much a rogue is skilled, rogue is as soon caught in cc, its over. There is no resistance to save u from that nor stable defense to tank anything. No reflex isn't saving u from cc, it has 4 sec cd you are dead in 2-3 secs 

Ah yes because the game is meant to be played like that

 

JuSt StaY hiddEN bRO 

 

 

Immunity? Lmao stealth isn't immunity whatsoever its being out of target for people to hit you but the part you're deliberately leaving out is rogue has to come out of stealth eventually lol theres no situation in warspear in which rogue is supposed to stay in stealth and that somehow solves that situation, you are just invisible thats it. and this is ignoring that:

- Literally anyone can pop a detect pot and your "major" skill is no longer useful

-more than 50% of classes have detect skills or aoe which reveals rogue

Rogue has absolutely no use in 99% of scenarios and this has been going on for not 1, not 2 but many years now, its state is horrendous and is a F tier class by every metric and any tier list made, even devs know, its why we starting to see tease of buffs about rogue. You'd have to be reallyyyyyy not paying attention or just biased for some odd reason becs its really not necessary, we're all playing the same game and if a class sucks, it just sucks no matter which side you are legion/sentinel you have to say it like it is

I don't mean to be offensive, but if you're genuinely unable to understand the benefits that come from being able to turn invisible and untargetable at the same time at the start of every fight, at every opportunity given during the fight, and at the end of a fight, I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

5 hours ago, vavavi said:

The skill literally makes you untargetable by anything that requires a target. It allows you to pick and choose where and when you fight. It allows you to go in and out of fights unlike any other class apart from seeker can. 

 

I have to disagree with this part though. I can bring an example where Back in the days where you did not have experts around, the very skilled players could achieve a good outcome when they used certain disabling skills (Earthquake, FoJ, Roots and so on); in other words, they could kite. Kiting, in fact, could grant you to go "out from fights" (even if technically you were still fighting) when situation required so and a good kiter was also the one who kept fighting without getting touched once. That doesn't mean that you had to run, but kiting allowed, if the user decided so, to run away from a fight to restore your health completely. 

 

In the modern days, where experts grant a considerable ammount of stunning/CC skills, even AoE, A lot of classes can simply stun and get out from tricky situations, and not only rogues or seekers, as you're stating. Not to mention that in a more realistic scenario which sees Rogues/Seekers being under several AoEs in a fight, may it be that you even managed to Gouge the opponent and run away, you can still get caught by AoE Disabling or Damaging skills, for Stealth grants you no immunity from anything at all. 

 

Do you see it now why people can't simply buy the tale where they're ultra strong and immune as long as they're invisible, because we both know (you more than me, actually) that the times you turn invisible during a fight is... once (the very beginning of the fight), for a rogue is more likely to die from being perma stunned (no damage reduction abilities or resistence, unlike its elven counterpart) once it gets out from stealth. I would agree with you if we had a situation where every single disabling skill required a target, but nowadays you got an even quantity (if not bigger) AoE Disabling/Damaging skills than targeting skills, so the statement you're saying is simply biased. I'm not mentioning the accessibility of detect potions either.

 

Could it be, according to you, that every single rogue user that is complaining for his/her class is that naive not to have thought about invisibility as a mean to avoid stuns? In the best scenario, this is making mockery of their intelligence. 

If you want to enhance your survival skills, you have to pay at least some price. Just like the Explorer, if you choose the resistance branch, you lose a lot of dmg. But I don't see mcs willing to pay the price.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by weakplay

6 hours ago, vavavi said:

Being unable to dodge AoE effectively while invisible is quite literally a skill issue. It is completely reliant on the stealth users ability.

bro druid literally have a dmg skill that cover a 7x7 area with 0 cd. Unless being skillful = afk, i dont see anyone can dodge that

 

1 hour ago, Higgings said:

 

I have to disagree with this part though. I can bring an example where Back in the days where you did not have experts around, the very skilled players could achieve a good outcome when they used certain disabling skills (Earthquake, FoJ, Roots and so on); in other words, they could kite. Kiting, in fact, could grant you to go "out from fights" (even if technically you were still fighting) when situation required so and a good kiter was also the one who kept fighting without getting touched once. That doesn't mean that you had to run, but kiting allowed, if the user decided so, to run away from a fight to restore your health completely. 

 

In the modern days, where experts grant a considerable ammount of stunning/CC skills, even AoE, A lot of classes can simply stun and get out from tricky situations, and not only rogues or seekers, as you're stating. Not to mention that in a more realistic scenario which sees Rogues/Seekers being under several AoEs in a fight, may it be that you even managed to Gouge the opponent and run away, you can still get caught by AoE Disabling or Damaging skills, for Stealth grants you no immunity from anything at all. 

 

Do you see it now why people can't simply buy the tale where they're ultra strong and immune as long as they're invisible, because we both know (you more than me, actually) that the times you turn invisible during a fight is... once (the very beginning of the fight), for a rogue is more likely to die from being perma stunned (no damage reduction abilities or resistence, unlike its elven counterpart) once it gets out from stealth. I would agree with you if we had a situation where every single disabling skill required a target, but nowadays you got an even quantity (if not bigger) AoE Disabling/Damaging skills than targeting skills, so the statement you're saying is simply biased. I'm not mentioning the accessibility of detect potions either.

 

Could it be, according to you, that every single rogue user that is complaining for his/her class is that naive not to have thought about invisibility as a mean to avoid stuns? In the best scenario, this is making mockery of their intelligence. 

The dodge should be dodge the controls too like a instant stun dmg to enemy when it dodge, ... It dodge the stun too. 

 

Its not about the skill of player is issue the class was poor even a pro player can't used this class becuz its outdated thats why they keep investing BD class becuz it was too op and easy to play no need brain using in that class just tap those skill randomly then boom your enemy die ez pz class.

 

BD- popular for nub players

 

Rogue- popular for high IQ players even the class was not in meta anymore

 

Facts

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by Joy Boy Abunda

8 hours ago, vavavi said:

I don't mean to be offensive

You're not offensive, you genuinely don't know what you're talking about when it comes to rogue and pretty much everyone here sees that. the class is completely useless and no one really enjoys nor wants to keep playing it

 

I assume you like playing this game since you come and engage in discussions about it, if that's the case then you have to remember that all classes here matters. There's no denial rogue lacks alot of things, i know you see this by the amount of players complaining. Saying to hundreds of players to "just get better" and "its skill issue" like they haven't tried that is just ridiculous and dismissive of the facts. highly suggest you drop the stubborn mentality it's not helping you understand nothing when you have got people telling you you're wrong left and right

2 hours ago, Higgings said:

Could it be, according to you, that every single rogue user that is complaining for his/her class is that naive not to have thought about invisibility as a mean to avoid stuns? In the best scenario, this is making mockery of their intelligence. 

Considering the fact that they are denying stealth in any way helping them counter being cced while it makes them untargetable, yes. It could be.

 

Some counters existing for that ability doesn't make weak. Yes, there are ways to get revealed from stealth (there honestly should be more), but those are either 

 

A. Heavily nerfed and inconsistent at best (detect pots)

B. Completely dependant on player skill

C. The 2 classes that have a skill dedicated solely for that purpose

2 hours ago, Higgings said:

 

I have to disagree with this part though. I can bring an example where Back in the days where you did not have experts around, the very skilled players could achieve a good outcome when they used certain disabling skills (Earthquake, FoJ, Roots and so on); in other words, they could kite. Kiting, in fact, could grant you to go "out from fights" (even if technically you were still fighting) when situation required so and a good kiter was also the one who kept fighting without getting touched once. That doesn't mean that you had to run, but kiting allowed, if the user decided so, to run away from a fight to restore your health completely. 

 

In the modern days, where experts grant a considerable ammount of stunning/CC skills, even AoE, A lot of classes can simply stun and get out from tricky situations, and not only rogues or seekers, as you're stating. Not to mention that in a more realistic scenario which sees Rogues/Seekers being under several AoEs in a fight, may it be that you even managed to Gouge the opponent and run away, you can still get caught by AoE Disabling or Damaging skills, for Stealth grants you no immunity from anything at all. 

 

Do you see it now why people can't simply buy the tale where they're ultra strong and immune as long as they're invisible, because we both know (you more than me, actually) that the times you turn invisible during a fight is... once (the very beginning of the fight), for a rogue is more likely to die from being perma stunned (no damage reduction abilities or resistence, unlike its elven counterpart) once it gets out from stealth. I would agree with you if we had a situation where every single disabling skill required a target, but nowadays you got an even quantity (if not bigger) AoE Disabling/Damaging skills than targeting skills, so the statement you're saying is simply biased. I'm not mentioning the accessibility of detect potions either.

 

Could it be, according to you, that every single rogue user that is complaining for his/her class is that naive not to have thought about invisibility as a mean to avoid stuns? In the best scenario, this is making mockery of their intelligence. 

Ok let me give you an example where stealth is extremely abusable and very very strong at avoiding both dying and cc. Let's consider idk, a 4v4 fight in arena. 

 

You have a rogue, let's assume they're smart enough to build some base resist in their gears and they are actually using resist buffs. How would you stop a rogue with high resist, a mage style barrier that activates the second they take damage and who actually clicks a tp pot when they're in a bad spot? They would be fully capable of dipping in and out of fights the vast majority of the time. They'll be able to reappear only when their skills/tp pot are nearly done with their cds. They'll also only reappear with a ranged stun and a big burst of dmg skills ready to start with. 

 

Assuming their team isn't completely useless, how do you counter this? You have a very short window of time where it's even possible to do so and that is because of stealth. Can you imagine adding a resist skill to that mix? It would be completely busted.

 

It's a very strong class in most arenas when played correctly. You could argue that it's one of the best classes for medium sized fights where one person not being present for a few seconds doesn't instantly make the team collapse. like from 3v3 up to like, idk, 10v10? 2v2 is a bit iffy, but its definitely still workable there also, just not against every class combo.

 

Does it struggle in mass fights? Yes, but no class is supposed to be good at everything.

1 hour ago, mjk4 said:

bro druid literally have a dmg skill that cover a 7x7 area with 0 cd. Unless being skillful = afk, i dont see anyone can dodge that

 

Yeah, fair, but that skill is most likely going to get a very deserved nerf.

 

18 minutes ago, Shax said:

You're not offensive, you genuinely don't know what you're talking about when it comes to rogue and pretty much everyone here sees that. the class is completely useless and no one really enjoys nor wants to keep playing it

 

I assume you like playing this game since you come and engage in discussions about it, if that's the case then you have to remember that all classes here matters. There's no denial rogue lacks alot of things, i know you see this by the amount of players complaining. Saying to hundreds of players to "just get better" and "its skill issue" like they haven't tried that is just ridiculous and dismissive of the facts. highly suggest you drop the stubborn mentality it's not helping you understand nothing when you have got people telling you you're wrong left and right

Dont cherry pick what I said. I said that both being able to avoid AoEs, and being able to catch invisible rogues with AoEs, is completely skill dependant. And it is, it's the actions of the players involved that decide whether or not the rogue gets caught. Never said that every possible issue is.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi

14 minutes ago, Shax said:

You're not offensive, you genuinely don't know what you're talking about when it comes to rogue and pretty much everyone here sees that. the class is completely useless and no one really enjoys nor wants to keep playing it

 

I assume you like playing this game since you come and engage in discussions about it, if that's the case then you have to remember that all classes here matters. There's no denial rogue lacks alot of things, i know you see this by the amount of players complaining. Saying to hundreds of players to "just get better" and "its skill issue" like they haven't tried that is just ridiculous and dismissive of the facts. highly suggest you drop the stubborn mentality it's not helping you understand nothing when you have got people telling you you're wrong left and right

I know that guy @vavavifrom discord he feel like he know everything in every class. Even in class discussion he is there to argue with anyone.

 

90% player on discord know how sucks this class is and here is vavavi saying that this stealth is op, this rogue class is op. Like he clearly know nothing. And coming from a BD player.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by Joy Boy Abunda

21 minutes ago, vavavi said:

You have a rogue, let's assume they're smart enough to build some base resist in their gears and they are actually using resist buffs.

 

If we take into account external buffs and enhancements when measuring the strenght of a class we will have a biased outcome. Litterally anybody can use this, which means you can't just use these parameters to measure the strenght of a specific class. I agree that it's in the fundamentals of a fight to cover your weak points, but it should make sense if those weak points could be covered by the character's skills/talents or at the very very least, gears. When you have a situation where your skills/talents cannot cover these weak points and neither can your gears, then there's something wrong with the class ' design. 

 

21 minutes ago, vavavi said:

How would you stop a rogue with high resist, a mage style barrier that activates the second they take damage and who actually clicks a tp pot when they're in a bad spot?

 

And that's what I'm talking about. Why are they supposed to use a TP pot to get out from a bad spot and why shouldn't they be able to just stun and run away as the majority of classes can do? See, the TP pot in your scenario is a must, when normally it should be a plus. Now let's try to rephrase everything you said in your example without mentioning any of the external buffs. I don't know you but I stopped imagining the scenario the very moment I read "the second they take damage". Cause this is what It takes to kill them if everybody focused them. 

 

21 minutes ago, vavavi said:

Considering the fact that they are denying stealth in any way helping them counter being cced while it makes them untargetable, yes. It could be.

 

The same way, however, you're not listening to how experienced and (I believe) fully booked players are having troubles with their classes in everything that's not PvE. If you say that they might be naive, it might also be true that you're not being honest with the case. 

19 minutes ago, vavavi said:

You have a rogue, let's assume they're smart enough to build some base resist in their gears and they are actually using resist buffs. How would you stop a rogue with high resist, a mage style barrier that activates the second they take damage and who actually clicks a tp pot when they're in a bad spot?

First off, with a 2 pce resist build snow gear, youre losing vital stats like hp, resil. Rogue already with full 60% resil is a dummy. It melts to dmg most importantly dot dmg because reflex cannot protect from that. So that already makes ur example useless. Secondly, you have basically proved why rogue needs resistance because with that example, the enemy who is facing rogue more than likely has more resistance and defense than a rogue, so they actually have nothing to worry about and they can use tp pots themselves so there's really no scenario where rogue can be as strong as you claim. Reflex is a horrible shield that was added to rogue in a rush, you are able to dodge 2 hits and then its gone. The reason mage barrier looks better on mage is because mage is a ranged class with resistance ability and good aoe dmg that heals them from lifesteal, they are able to charge enemies without worry. Rogue on the other hand is a melee type class, meaning youd have to be wasting time and taking dmg just while chasing enemies, with no movement speed, 1 aoe dmg skill that needs a talent to be somewhat effective yet has the longest cd. And 1 ranged stun that is useful but what else? Illusive jump is a permanent 1/4 skill that as soon as u press it to get close to druid/priest/ranger u are caught in a stun in most scenarios due to 2 sec delay of skill use after using it 

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by Shax

14 minutes ago, Higgings said:

 

If we take into account external buffs and enhancements when measuring the strenght of a class we will have a biased outcome. Litterally anybody can use this, which means you can't just use these parameters to measure the strenght of a specific class. I agree that it's in the fundamentals of a fight to cover your weak points, but it should make sense if those weak points could be covered by the character's skills/talents or at the very very least, gears. 

 

 

And that's what I'm talking about. Why are they supposed to use a TP pot to get out from a bad spot and why shouldn't they be able to just stun and run away as the majority of classes can do? See, the TP pot in your scenario is a must, when normally it should be a plus. Now let's try to rephrase everything you said in your example without mentioning any of the external buffs. I don't know you but I stopped imagining the scenario the very moment I read "the second they take damage". Cause this is what It takes to kill them if everybody focused them. 

 

 

The same way, however, you're not listening to how experienced and (I believe) fully booked players are having troubles with their classes in everything that's not PvE. If you say that they might be naive, it might also be true that you're not being honest with the case. 

Okay so your idea of balance is built around a frame where you remove half the mechanics in the game from consideration? That's how you end up with abusable classes. You need to consider everything that is available, not just the naked base of classes.

 

Also I said assuming their team isn't incompetent. As in the 3 other teammates in that scenario are actually threatening enough to not allow for the whole enemy team to wait around for the rogue to appear without using their stuns/damage skills to instantly focus them all on it.

 

Are tp pots necessary for doing well in my scenario? They help, but they are a game mechanic that is available for use. A mechanic that benefits rogues significantly more than other classes due to stealth.  The exact same way people keep mentioning detect pots that help against them.

 

Also I find it funny how you ignore the fact that EU has, or at least had a couple months ago, multiple actually skilled rogues that dominated by using the things that are available to them. Bug and pawned for example. They did extremely well by using the class to its fullest potential.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi

2 minutes ago, vavavi said:

Okay so your idea of balance is built around a frame where you remove half the mechanics in the game from consideration? That's how you end up with abusable classes. You need to consider everything that is available, not just the naked base of classes.

 

No, you don't. Let's take the "everything available" you mentioned materializing it as the Magic Resistance book applied to a class such as Rogue. Would it make the class strong? Yes. Would any other Rogue without the mentioned book be strong, considering the aforementioned complaints and scenarios? I dare to say No. Conclusions? Rogue is... strong with an ultra rare book(?)

 

The mechanics You're talking about are dependent on the wealth of the player, where the richer you are and the stronger you become. While this point of view is fair within the boundaries of the game in general, it is not when you are a dev and you have to decide stats for your classes. Said process requires you to have the most common scenario available and not the most extreme one, for, as the word implies, it's not common for common players to have every single buff at their disposal. 

No rogue has dominated anything, pawned? Lol The guy who basically created a "delete rogue guide"? Who is maining shaman because he got tired of rogue being a garbage outdated class. Mind you he's full booked too and anybody can say the same thing about any other class, theres no point in saying "i know a pro rogue"  because Anybody can say "i know a pro priest" when you complain about priest's resistance or survivability like you did here

21 minutes ago, Higgings said:

 

No, you don't. Let's take the "everything available" you mentioned materializing it as the Magic Resistance book applied to a class such as Rogue. Would it make the class strong? Yes. Would any other Rogue without the mentioned book be strong, considering the aforementioned complaints and scenarios? I dare to say No. Conclusions? Rogue is... strong with an ultra rare book(?)

 

The mechanics You're talking about are dependent on the wealth of the player, where the richer you are and the stronger you become. While this point of view is fair within the boundaries of the game in general, it is not when you are a dev and you have to decide stats for your classes. Said process requires you to have the most common scenario available and not the most extreme one, for, as the word implies, it's not common for common players to have every single buff at their disposal. 

That's just taking it to a ridiculous extreme. Tp pots aren't limited in availability like octo book is. Any actually competitive player who has the funds to build their rogue properly should be able to afford pots that cost 3k a set. Using pots that are not limited in availability and cost 3k a set isn't an extreme case.

 

Also no, you can't balance things around people being bad/not using game mechanics. If you balance classes around that, then the people who actually have these resources will become exponentially stronger compared to those who don't. Simply because a stronger base will get amplified even more with the use of these resources. 

 

In other words, a stronger base class will gain larger benefits from these buffs. Which makes the gap between people who have these resources, and those who don't, inherently larger. This is why balancing things based on the average player, instead of the top ones, ends up hurting the average player more.

 

In other, other words. Let's assign a power number for Timmy, 100. Timmy is an average player. John, who plays the same class, but uses these resources, is twice as powerful as Timmy. Johns power number is 200. In this case the gap between power levels is 100. In this scenario, when Timmy fights other Timmys, they're equal.

 

Now let's say buffs get made based on all the Timmys and their power level increases to 200. Every Timmy will still be on equal footing with other Timmys, 200 vs 200. Johns with these resources are, once again, twice as powerful as Timmys, but now at 400. The only thing that changed is that the gap between Timmys and Johns is now twice as large at 200, which hurts Timmy.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi

26 minutes ago, Higgings said:

The same way, however, you're not listening to how experienced and (I believe) fully booked players are having troubles with their classes in everything that's not PvE. If you say that they might be naive, it might also be true that you're not being honest with the case. 

Im 100% sure he isn't honest its just becuz his class in favor.

 

Tnx Higgins i hope you and your team have a good news for rogue player this upcoming balancing patch im sure many would comeback play this game again and rogue players, when rogue are famous last 5 years ago.

 

Make our Christmas happy 😁 

 

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by Joy Boy Abunda

3 minutes ago, vavavi said:

That's just taking it to a ridiculous extreme. Tp pots aren't limited in availability like octo book is. Any actually competitive player who has the funds to build their rogue properly should be able to afford pots that cost 3k a set. Using pots that are not limited in availability and cost 3k a set isn't an extreme case.

 

Who has set the confines of how an example is too far or not? May it be a ridiculous extreme, it doesn't change the outcome you'd get. The very moment you get these items you're talking about to compensate your weaknesses and you realize that they do not help either (Rogue's case), the class needs a buff. 

 

6 minutes ago, vavavi said:

Also no, you can't balance things around people being bad/not using game mechanics. If you balance classes around that, then the people who actually have these resources will become exponentially stronger compared to those who don't. Simply because a stronger base will get amplified even more with the use of these resources.

 

Why are you taking as fact that every single rogue user is bad and is not using game mechanics? Have you considered for a moment that they're using everything you mentioned and it's still failing? Besides, we DO have classes that are exponentially stronger compared to classes who do not use stats you mentioned. It's really nothing new. 

24 minutes ago, Higgings said:

 

Who has set the confines of how an example is too far or not? May it be a ridiculous extreme, it doesn't change the outcome you'd get. The very moment you get these items you're talking about to compensate your weaknesses and you realize that they do not help either (Rogue's case), the class needs a buff. 

 

 

Why are you taking as fact that every single rogue user is bad and is not using game mechanics? Have you considered for a moment that they're using everything you mentioned and it's still failing? Besides, we DO have classes that are exponentially stronger compared to classes who do not use stats you mentioned. It's really nothing new. 

I was making a point relating to you saying that balance should be done based on the average player, not ppl playing rogue specifically. You're now just cherry picking small segments of my points with the goal of taking them out of the context in which they were made, in order to change that context to whatever fits you, and trying to make the whole point look bad based on the assumption that the full context won't get read.

 

What I was saying, is that balancing things based on the average player is bad. Said nothing about every rogue user being bad, despite you trying to twist it that way.

 

24 minutes ago, Higgings said:

 

Who has set the confines of how an example is too far or not? May it be a ridiculous extreme, it doesn't change the outcome you'd get. The very moment you get these items you're talking about to compensate your weaknesses and you realize that they do not help either (Rogue's case), the class needs a buff. 

But they do help. In this case they help rogues more than most classes. Enough to make them extremely strong (And competitive against other classes doing the exact same thing) in their area of expertise when used to their full potential. 

 

External things, as in things outside of just the base class, are a big part of balancing. Certain buffs and mechanics simply work better with some classes.

 

Sure, giving resist skill to your average rogue who for one reason or another won't use the resources available to them wouldn't be that bad. The problem with doing that, is that it would make the people who do take advantage of these resources absurdly strong. That's why I have an issue with that idea.

 

For example, look at druids tornado. If you have your average druid who doesn't really have books or every possible buff, the skill is annoying, but you most likely can deal with the druid anyway.

But then you run into someone like bored, who actually has optimized the class. Now instead of tornado being slightly annoying, it turns into a permanent cc that can control a whole team, while making him borderline unkillable in the process. Now it's a problem. See what I'm trying to say?

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi

15 minutes ago, vavavi said:

I was making a point relating to you saying that balance should be done based on the average player, not ppl playing rogue specifically. You're now just cherry picking small segments of my points with the goal of taking them out of the context in which they were made, in order to change that context to whatever fits you, and trying to make the whole point look bad based on the assumption that the full context won't get read.

 

Personally I disagree on your concept of how balancing should be made, but that's fine enough. We have clearly two different points of view about this. On the other hand, I have no interest on taking your segments out of context because I have no interest on taking a particular position in class related conversations; Everyone can litterally just click the top right corner of the quote diagram to see the entirety of what we wrote earlier. If they don't want to do so, it doesn't mean I assume anything and certainly it doesn't invalidate points I write (and the same is applied in your case, no less). My point was just underlining how you're ignoring what people who actually play the class tell you and eventually find out why you are trying to deny what they're saying, that's really it. It might be that I got what you wrote about bad players/players who don't use mechanic wrong, but I stay strong on the position that you're not being entirely honest about this entire topic. 

 

30 minutes ago, vavavi said:

But they do help. In this case they help rogues more than most classes. Enough to make them extremely strong (And competitive against other classes doing the exact same thing) in their area of expertise when used to their full potential

 

Some rogue players here have shown to disagree with this statement. 

11 minutes ago, Higgings said:

Some rogue players here have shown to disagree with this statement. 

 

Yeah.

 

12 minutes ago, Joy Boy Abunda said:

This is the reason i called you 🤡 🤡 in discord. Your class now is sleeping in paradise and you still isn't happy, while the other class was suffering from disappointment, im not bias but Rogue and Templar need a massive buff this 2025, these class was sleeping for many years.

 

Just admit it, you just once said you have played rogue class back then and your reason you change your class becuz you want explore other class ( i know you are lying) lie, you just change class to BD becuz u know that the class is in meta and it was op without book. But i know u didn't played rogue based on what you said here you being a 🤡 as always discord and forum tsk.

@Higgings

Ignoring this makes me dishonest? There has been 2 coherent ppl who replied, you and pawned. Both of which I read through and answered to your points. But this? What am I supposed to do other than ignore it.

 

Like I'm sorry that someone saying "I play this class, I know better, it's bad", without bothering to explain why they think that doesn't magically make me change my mind.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi

1 minute ago, vavavi said:

There has been 2 coherent ppl who replied

No actually many people have been calling you out on ur poor understanding of classes all the time, but you are just stubborn and unwilling to move forward you, all you've been doing is repeating the same ridiculous claims while they have been answered wisely by actual people who play the class for years 

Just now, Shax said:

No actually many people have been calling you out on ur poor understanding of classes all the time, but you are just stubborn and unwilling to move forward you, all you've been doing is repeating the same ridiculous claims while they have been answered wisely by actual people who play the class for years 

See? You're just insulting me by calling me stupid and my opinions invalid. Doing the exact thing I said.

14 minutes ago, vavavi said:

@Higgings

Ignoring this makes me dishonest? There has been 2 coherent ppl who replied, you and pawned. Both of which I read through and answered to your points. But this? What am I supposed to do other than ignore it.

 

Like I'm sorry that someone saying "I play this class, I know better, it's bad", without bothering to explain why they think that doesn't magically make me change my mind.

 

I dislike when people reach this state of argumentation. I can promise you you won't have to worry about this further from now on. 

 

 

My sincere apologies for his behaviour 

13 minutes ago, vavavi said:

See? You're just insulting me by calling me stupid and my opinions invalid. Doing the exact thing I said.

Insult you? Called you stupid? Please highlight where exactly, saying you have poor understanding of classes isn't an insult, youre just insecure for thinking that someone who thinks your claims about rogue is ridiculous automatically is insulting you, this is immature mentality and you're probably gonna say I insulted you again wouldn't be surprised 

 

22 minutes ago, vavavi said:

without bothering to explain why they think that doesn't magically make me change my mind.

So now we're just gonna ignore my explanations and everybody's here and say "no one explained anything" again proving what i said about you just not paying attention and screaming I'm "right" 

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by Shax

1 hour ago, vavavi said:

Also I find it funny how you ignore the fact that EU has, or at least had a couple months ago, multiple actually skilled rogues that dominated by using the things that are available to them. Bug and pawned for example. They did extremely well by using the class to its fullest potential.

 

Thats also a good to point out that EU indeed had a plenty on skilled / booked Rogues but where are they now ? If indeed resist pot and castle scroll would be the whole "fix" there would not be only me and Bug left. Right ?

1 hour ago, vavavi said:

Are tp pots necessary for doing well in my scenario? They help, but they are a game mechanic that is available for use. A mechanic that benefits rogues significantly more than other classes due to stealth.  The exact same way people keep mentioning detect pots that help against them.

 

They can help in some scenarios but its a Gamble. If we wanna consider using TP pots, then imagine other side (enemy) is using them too. If both of us gonna start spaming tp pots the moment it will be suitable for us, its a Rogue that will lose in a long run, especially in a current meta where CCs and DMG are over the roof. Its just not possible to play / use a class that is this "paper". 

10 minutes ago, pawned said:

 

Thats also a good to point out that EU indeed had a plenty on skilled / booked Rogues but where are they now ? If indeed resist pot and castle scroll would be the whole "fix" there would not be only me and Bug left. Right ?

 

They can help in some scenarios but its a Gamble. If we wanna consider using TP pots, then imagine other side (enemy) is using them too. If both of us gonna start spaming tp pots the moment it will be suitable for us, its a Rogue that will lose in a long run, especially in a current meta where CCs and DMG are over the roof. Its just not possible to play / use a class that is this "paper". 

Honestly, theres only 1-3 top tier users for any given class in EU, the servers just kinda dead. So 'only' having 2 isn't anything special. 

 

Of course others can use TPs too, but they're far more effective with rogues ability to stealth and return to the fight safely after. If you added a resist skill without heavily nerfing stealth that abuse would be stupidly broken. I mean just imagine giving bd stealth based on their weakness being lack of range/surprise. It'd be busted beyond belief.

 

Also rogues really aren't that paper. If you compare them to other light armor damage classes, like rangers, hunters, seekers, they might even be the tankiest one simply due to reflex.

Edited December 8, 20241 yr by vavavi