Paladin Revisited - Food For Thought

[Gladiator 1216]

The game's overall balance might seem all over the place nowadays, which I do think is the case due to a couple of classes (e.g. Chieftain, Reaper, and Beastmaster) and items in the game (Castle potions and Octopus and Orcinus books). But other than that, in my opinion, Paladin is in a pretty good spot in most areas of the game, except in few aspects due to some outdated skills and I'm here to discuss some of these issues.

I do think some of the Paladin's skills need to be revisited, especially Light Defense and Sun Seal. But here I also have a couple of ideas to rework some other skills and talents that can help Paladin fulfill purposes that it already has but very untapped. 
 

 

1. Light Defense

 

In my previous topic analysis of Paladin's defensive skills, I discussed the defensive powers of Inner Force, Light Defense, and Sacred Shield from a neutral perspective. Most notably, I found that Light Defense is a reasonably good defensive skill at level 4/4 in a full party and a stronger skill than Inner Force on a solo-level if the Paladin's HP is higher than 40%. But also that defensive capability is approximately 10% damage reduction, which is weak by all standards of the game (Unless you think about 10% protection to 5 people in GvG). Which is still pretty weak for the 3 skill points, considering that a GvG-situation is not very common. So, since the skill is pretty good with 5 people, but pretty weak below that, I suggest few options to make it better:

 

(Keep in mind, I tried to suggest numbers that make sense but they are just examples and are up for debate)

 

Option 1:

- To make it simpler, make the skill an area spell that casts a buff of a set amount of % damage reduction within it, that also splits among the affected party members:

So at level 4/4, if the skill is affecting ...

5 players, it gives 8% damage reduction

4 players, it gives 10% damage reduction

3 players, it gives 11% damage reduction

2 players, it gives 13% damage reduction

1 player, it gives 15% damage reduction

Spoiler

Lvl3

6%-8%-9%-11%-13%

Lvl2

5%-6%-7%-9%-10%

Lvl1

3%-4%-5%-6%-7%

 

Btw, the % damage reduction affecting 5 people is pretty much what it is right now! (3%-8% Defense) It's pretty bad if not affecting a whole party isn't it.

 

 

 

Option 2:

- Keep it as it is now, maybe reduce its duration or increase its cooldown, and add one of the following additional effects that scale back according to the number of affected allies:

 

• If physical damage is higher than magical damage: Periodic HP% regen for affected party members. For example 5%-6%-8%-10% of Paladin's HP every 10 seconds (Unaffected by any healing modifiers). The value of HP recovered would be split among the affected targets. 
• If magic value is higher than physical: the skill provides periodic debuff cleansing. 1-1-2-2 debuff(s) removal every X amount of seconds. X depends on the number of affected targets: 5 players - 18 seconds, 4 players - 16 seconds, 3 players - 14  seconds, 2 players - 12 seconds, 1 player 10 seconds.

Or

• If using a two-handed weapon: it additionally reflects 6%-7%-9%-12%-15% of the damage dealt to the party members back to the enemy, depending on the affect number of players (5-4-3-2-1)

Spoiler

Lvl4

6%-7%-9%-12%-15%

Lvl3

5%-6%-7%-10%-12%

Lvl2

4%-5%-6%-8%-10%

Lvl1

3%-4%-5%-7%-9%

• If using a one-handed weapon and shield: It additionally increases party members' Resistance parameter by 5%-6%-8%-10%-10% (affected players: 5-4-3-2-1)

Spoiler

Lvl4

5%-6%-8%-10%-10%

Lvl3

3%-5%-7%-8%-8%

Lvl2

3%-4%-5%-6%-7%

Lvl1

2%-3%-4%-5%-5%

 

As I was writing this I kinda realized how hard is it to make a bonus value that is not broken for 1 person that it would still be relevant for 5 people if you divide it by 5... But you get the point, I think the skill should be redesiged in a way that it is not completely useless other than with full party. I'll leave it up to the brilliant devs that figure out.

 

 

2. Sun Seal 

 

Heal effect based on damage dealt (5%-10%-13%-16%) from Sun Seal seems very good on paper. I mean 16% life steal with basically permanent duration? Sign me up! And indeed it was is pretty good in my experience when playing with physical damage weapons in PvE. It helps tank minibosses a lot and serves as nice bonus to your life steal and potentially even replacing the need for it. This is all good and dandy as long as the fight is with a single high HP opponent - a boss. However, it was never possible to gain any value out of it in PvP. Most of the time there are many opponents, most people have heavy mermen that can cleanse the seal debuff, and most people have a high resistance. And even in PvE, dungeon monsters do not have a high enough HP to survive long enough to get the full benefit of the 25 seconds of a 4/4 Sun Seal. Sun Seal is mostly a single target damage dealer skill with average multipliers. It would be great to see a change that better enable that healing aspect of the skill.

 

It should have an additional effect:

- If ally hitting target with seal already has full HP, instead of wasted heals, it transfers the heals to the next party member with lowest HP. 

 

And more importantly for PvE:

- If enemy dies while seal active, depending on remaining seconds of duration, heals all party members around target by 5x5 radius with a certain amount.

For example if there is 10 seconds duration left, it heals 10% of the HP or something like that. In most extreme case if Sun Seal was used as a final blow, it would have 25 seconds left, so 25% of the ally's HP. 

 

And to increase its reliability against bosses and minibosses as it gets resisted by bosses a lot, I also suggest making it irresistible at levels 3-4.

 

3. Shield Strike with magic mace:

 

With the addition of the branch "Bulwark of Faith", one-handed magic mace and shields gained a lot more popularity as it makes Paladin very tanky while maintaining a good level of support. But those builds are the worst in terms of damage, overall, the build lacks that oomph. Now, of course it is not supposed to do that much damage if it is going to be this tanky, but also it should be able to do some damage... It certainly won't break it. 

 

Suggestion:

- Adjust the formula and make the damage scale off of both magic + physical damage instead of just physical damage. Scale back the phyiscal damage part so that the added magic calculation does not significantly increase the current skill damage for normal physical maces with magic sub-stats.

 

 

 

--Extras--

 

Other fixes that are not as a essential. These suggestions have a theme: Magic Paladin as a damage dealer and buffer in PvP.

Let me first say, magic Paladin in PvE is already in great shape at the moment, but let's be honest, in PvP it is extremely underwhelming, it is just a glorified healer that stands there and does nothing but heal and shield, it poses very limited offensive threat to the enemies and ends a up like a loud, annoying bug that does not sting so you wave it away every now and then. All other healers (maybe besides Necromancer) deal a very considerable amounts of damage, are pretty tanky, as well as provide as good, if not better support than Paladin... 

 

 

4. Sacred Shield talent

Right now, it only increases damage against monsters. I don't see why it shouldn't apply in against players too, shield tends to break fast anyway, it's not gonna break the game... It would be a nice little bonus.

 

5. Inner Force rework for two-handed weapons:

 

This one is admittedly a little ambitious, I doubt it's gonna happen since it is a pretty radical change to the skill mechanic, but nothing to lose I guess, so I'll just put it out there:

I always disliked how selfish Inner Force and its talents are. It is good that it makes Paladin a viable tank, however, I think if the Paladin is using two-handed weapons the skill should serve a different purpose that suit the 2-handed weapon better. I also think it can make two-handed magic Paladin a little too tanky especially in PvP, in my opinion. So I think if Paladin is using 2-handed weapons it should not give tankiness but rather it should provide different effects that are rather offensive/offense support.

 

• Inner Force: If using two-handed weapons, it increases physical and magical powers of party members depending on Paladin's missing health: 1% phyiscal and 1.5% magic for every 12%-10%-8%-6% HP missing.
• Talent "External Influence": If using two-handed weapons, increases damage dealt by allies from skills by 1.5% depending on missing health.
• Talent "Unbroken Spirit": If using two-handed weapons, it increases Cooldown instead, +5% and additional 1% depending missing health.

 

 

6. "Reckoning" Talent Branch

 

And finally, to go with the mentioned Inner Force rework, Reckoning talent branch needs an overhaul. It's not a priority since most Paladins already chose a different branch, and rebalancing this branch would take a very long time to see its effect.

What would be great to see if that Aura talent "Everburning Candle" would synergize with the Inner Force rework and much like a candle (implied by the name) The Paladin would "burn and melt" his own HP to provide additional "light" to his allies. 

 

So it would work as following:

- While Light Aura is active, each time a healing effect is received by a party member, the Paladin sacrifices 10% of the healed amount of from his own HP. Every 2 seconds, 100% of the amount of sacrificed HP over the 2 seconds is added to each party member affected by Light Aura (except Paladin). This effect stops if the Paladin is below 40% HP.

Spoiler

For example:

5 Members in party

Priest heals someone by 5000!

Paladin loses 500 HP

Everyone else in party gets 500 HP

 

Extreme example:

5 Members in party

Beastmaster heals everyone 500-1000! x6 (Average of 20k) over 6 seconds

Paladin loses 2000 over 6 seconds

Everyone else gets 2000 over the 6 seconds

 

The same concept could be applied to "Faith Reckoning" by adding a condition that increases the chance of applying the negative effect as the HP decreases. The chance starts with the current 20% at 100% HP, and every 20% HP lost adds 20% chance to activate.

Spoiler

So basically:

100%-80% HP - 20% Chance

80%-60% HP - 40% Chance

60%-40% HP - 60% Chance

40%-20% HP - 80% Chance

20%-00% HP - 100% Chance

 

 

But the idea is to have a legitimate and fleshed out damage/support archetype for Paladin with a 2 handed build that is viable for PvP and PvE. Something that the Paladin already kinda has with Banner but that's it really, and the damage aspect of Paladin in PvP is very overshadowed. Now, I can see the argument that this would make magic Paladin in PvE too good, but come on, is it really gonna be better than Seekers, BDs, Mages, and Beastmasters? I doubt it. Mainly because all of these reworks rely on Paladin being low HP, and typically, 1 Illumination usage with decent Life Steal instantly fills up Palas HP. So I don't think that Paladin is gonna be low HP for a long time to make these additions all that crazy. Keep mind, Pala would lose the damage reduction and healing power from Inner Force and its talent, in fact, due to the "Everburning Candle" talent, not only would the Paladin sacrifice 10% of the party's healing, but also effectively receives 10% less healing himself.

 

 

That's it, whachu think?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Gladiator

[Chaos demon 302]

What about replacing accuracy from "light aura" and adds penetration instead?  We can get enough accuracy with  bracelets, we need penetration. 

 

Btw, i like the light defense idea

[Gladiator 1216]

9 hours ago, Lilweasel said:

What about replacing accuracy from "light aura" and adds penetration instead?  We can get enough accuracy with  bracelets, we need penetration. 

I mean that would be nice of course, but i don't mind the accuracy. It's good for higher levels of Almahad, where enemies have very high dodge, with that accu boost, you can build up your accu to reach close to 40%-50% pretty easily.

But even if you don't wanna reach that high, you can get rings and bracelets with HP instead of accuracy for example, and thereby benefit from that boost to make yourself tankier.

[Shboui 8]

What I'm trying to say is, Paladin is really behind of game version. And physics and spell building are disconnected, so you can't switch to magic build while using your physics talents, which will make your banner work no more.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Boshui

[Shboui 8]

For the second branch of the Paladin, I don't think it should be limited to the only option for physical build, and after you choose it, means you can only use physical build, or you will lose the Paladin's soul skill Banner.

 

You might as well give the second branch an additional option to no longer limit the damage calculation of the banner under this branch. The maximum physical damage (base +15%) or magic damage (base + 3x%) is used as the calculated personal damage

 

As for shields, I think we could consider opening up the pvp damage bonus instead of limiting it to pve only. Also, as an option to increase the paladin's damage, consider adding a finishing effect to the shield. When the shield is broken, deal 2x% of the shield loss damage to enemies within 3 yards. I think this shield end damage supplement can increase the damage of the paladin without destroying the positioning of the original auxiliary tank (because it only deals damage after the shield is destroyed).

Edited November 20, 2023 by Boshui

[LeafAutum 17]

9 hours ago, Boshui said:

What I'm trying to say is, Paladin is really behind of game version. And physics and spell building are disconnected, so you can't switch to magic build while using your physics talents, which will make your banner work no more.

And when u choose the physics talent the Divine lightbringer  is become useless.

[Gladiator 1216]

Also, can we buff the base magic of magic one handed maces or maybe increase the enchant value to match the hammer's? I feel like +10 lvl33 mace having only 265 magic while physical maces have 137 seems like too much of small difference when considering +10 phy mace also has 726 physical vs 385 in magic mace.

I just don't get why Paladin has to completely sacrifice any forms of damage to have any sustainable tankiness and support in today's state of the game.

[Staswery 149]

В 18.11.2023 в 13:40, Theweasel сказал:

What about replacing accuracy from "light aura" and adds penetration instead?  We can get enough accuracy with  bracelets, we need penetration. 

no.

[Khrone 653]

On 11/18/2023 at 3:40 PM, Theweasel disse:

What about replacing accuracy from "light aura" and adds penetration instead? 

I think it would be better if it increased Critical Hit instead, since more Critical Hit = more Critical Healings 

 

[ExDoff 9]

I agree with everything you said, the light defense skills, sun seal and repelling strike are well behind the current game. In my opinion, in the past, the sun seal was only useful to combo with the banner, but in the current game, when this combo was removed, the ability became completely useless.
As for the repelling blow, I agree that in the current direction the game is taking, many magical shield paladins are appearing and the paladin with a magical shield is very lacking in damage, so it should have some % of magical damage as well to help the magical paladins, but I think they could also add a second effect to the skill when you are using two-handed weapons because this skill becomes useless if you use a two-handed weapon, and this mechanic already exists in several other skills from other classes, I don't see Why not add it to the paladin's strike as well?

[Gladiator 1216]

It's the time of the year where class sections are flooded with suggestions. Reading this topic one year later, I still pretty much agree with me! (Except the Reckoning one, since it got rebalanced) So, instead of making a new topic and repeating myself, I'll just refresh this, re-emphasizing and adding new points.

 

I'll just say first, there is probably aspects of Paladin that could use a bit of nerf. Mainly is the new Power Surge talent, which I thought according to the test servers, it's gonna heal 4% / 5 seconds, but somehow it does it per 3 seconds.

As much as I would hate it, I think Healing or Fetters might also be nerfed. Which might not be bad if they buff up other weak spots. And these are:

 

Reckoning Branch:

Unlike what I said in the original post, after last year's rebalancing, the branch became a good option for magic based Paladins, adding up to 40% to the overall magical damage. It also has a lot of utility in pretty much all aspects of teamplay-based content.

The only thing that I would suggest is to make the DoT damage from the Faith Reckoning talent stagger enemies' movements in PvP (already does that in PvE).

This will add a little bit more to the offensive capability of this branch in PvP, which I think it does need. 

 

 

Bulwark of Faith:

This branch went from the best to the worst branch since its release. Although it makes Paladin a lot more comfortable in tanking. However, most content does not require that much tankiness. The only place where this could be used is in Arena as a frontline tank/support. But then, you expose yourself to being fully controlled since Paladin does not have a good anti-control mechanism. And since it's tanky, it won't be the first target of the enemies', making the Intercession talent pretty much useless.

My suggestion is to keep Intercession as it is except it would additionally work when the Paladin is targeted with a control effect but with a 3 seconds cooldown.

Alternatively, the 1h magic + shield build should be buffed systematically to provide unique added benefits that other builds don't provide. For example, increased control ability, or ability to counter controls. Again, such bonuses would be unique to a 1h (magic) mace shield build in this branch only.

 

Holy Warrior:

This branch works fine as it is, in my opinion. It's mainly a tanky branch that focuses damage on a single target, can be useful in boss fights, and certain Arena situations but not too many other cases. I don't think it requires further utility and I like the opportunity to choose what type I wanna play. I just wish switching branches was a bit cheaper.

 

 

Light Defense:

Every year, this skill comes up in balance conversations, yet it is never addressed. I don't get it.

While it does have certain uses, in most cases, it is utterly useless. I'll refer to my OP.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Gladiator

[LeafAutum 17]

8 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Light Defense:

Every year, this skill comes up in balance conversations, yet it is never addressed. I don't get it.

While it does have certain uses, in most cases, it is utterly useless. I'll refer to my OP.

I think  defense is an attribute with very low returns. Firstly, it has marginal returns, and secondly, it can be reduced by penetration and PIERC.

Unless give pala a skill which dmg depends on defense.It s can be physical defense × block.

What do u think so ，boy

[Sandels 14]

On 11/15/2024 at 12:56 AM, Gladiator said:

Light Defense:

Every year, this skill comes up in balance conversations, yet it is never addressed. I don't get it.

While it does have certain uses, in most cases, it is utterly useless. I'll refer to my OP.

Despite having barely any real damage reduction skills and mostly just minor talents aside from pala, elves are extremely tanky and hard to kill due to all the other skills and talents they got, i dont think giving them actual aoe damage reduction is a good idea. Yes, defence can be bypassef by penetration but not everyone has 50% pene and even so, its easy to get more than 50% def, especially mdef. That aoe def increase that also stacks with druid barskin is a very noticeable boost. Paladin is the last class in the game that needs MORE tankiness, it already takes 2 top tier dmg classes to kill a pala that runs with the talent branch made for tanking, sometimes you wont finish the job even in 5 mins nonstop attacking the pala 2v1. From my experience only pala and warden are capable of being so absurdly tanky that in 5 mins nonstop attacking 2v1, let alone trying to do it by yourself, you cant finish the job.

 

By the looks of your posting history here, you want pala to be able to do some dmg aswell. Im certainly not against that idea, also it already does it decently with the branch, but if the class can be able to do good dmg, it needs heavy nerfs in tankiness, control and support since it can already do them all at once. Paladins that DO NOT use the tanking  talent branch can be killed with 2 or more people after a while, but alone its still extremely hard even for a dmg class. 

 

Paladin still remains probably the 2nd best elf side class after druid for all pvp content, in terms of the value it brings to the battles, was it arena, gvg, whatever. I myself play mc, and when going against paladins in any pvp related content its instantly noticeable how much impact they have, lets take a look:

 

- AOE healing from talents (not so big amounts but its still there and certainly helps)

 

- Great AOE control with fetters and teleport. (Also nowadays easily being permanently cycled due to everyone being able to get so much Cooldown % and also even further boosted by subjucation)

 

-  AOE debuffs, most notably banner that alone is huge boost to dmg, being +25% dmg taken for the enemies. Has decent AOE dmg aswell with several skills although not the best. Can also AOE reduce healing reveiced by enemies.

 

- Exceptional group support, boosting all healing by 25%, boosting defence by 40% for whole pt, granting a shield to 2 people with relatively short cooldown, palading prayer giving a dmg boost to your party and other stuff.

 

Doing all that while being exceptionally tanky. Plenty of these can also be further boosted based on the talent branch you choose, so for paladin also to do more dmg among all of this is unreasonable. 1 handed physical dmg pala can actually do decent dmg to single targets while being reasonably tanky itself, also got one more stun and self healing from repellent strike. I dont know how good would a physical pala with spear do, i dont think ive ever seen even one that is properly built, but id imagine its not terrible either. You just lose the tankiness and support but still got better damage and have the control, relying on others to do the support role similar to how literally every other dmg build character does, they rely on someone else to do the support.

 

Now, i understand that you cannot max out all of the skills at once but you cant have a full package, to gain something you have to lose something else. I would not mind seeing pala do even similar dmg as a dk does with dmg setup, but in order for that to be reasonable, theyd have to also lose alot of the support and some control potential.

 

From my experience atleast, it seems like pala players do not really even explore the class or try out different things, they all been playing the same way for years now. I never see paladins with different builds in arenas testing out things that could potentially be great. I think most of them have gotten used to being able to jump into enemies and spam all their skills without dying while keeping people alive so when they try something else and cant do that anymore, they instantly think its bad just because they cant self sustain 100%. Maybe its time to try out something else and leave the support and absurd tankiness behind and change your playstyle accordingly, as do people with other classes that go for different builds with success.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Sandels

[LeafAutum 17]

3 hours ago, Sandels said:

From my experience only pala and warden are capable of being so absurdly tanky that in 5 mins nonstop attacking 2v1, let alone trying to do it by yourself, you cant finish the job.

Yes.cause barb can 1v3 and kill the 3 guys in 3mins now.

[Sandels 14]

6 hours ago, LeafAutum said:

Yes.cause barb can 1v3 and kill the 3 guys in 3mins now.

Not a single barb can win a 3v1 against enemies that are equal in strength and have even a few braincells. 1 handed barbs can only kill classes that cant heal and tank properly, which alot of classes can do nowadays. 2 handed barbs can beat more classes in a 1v1 situation but still they lose to many while 2 handed barbs are also completely paper even with stone skin after last wish end and dies quick if any dmg class hits them.

[Gladiator 1216]

Ok there is a lot to unpack here.

 

15 hours ago, Sandels said:

By the looks of your posting history here, you want pala to be able to do some dmg aswell. Im certainly not against that idea, also it already does it decently with the branch, but if the class can be able to do good dmg, it needs heavy nerfs in tankiness, control and support since it can already do them all at once. Paladins that DO NOT use the tanking  talent branch can be killed with 2 or more people after a while, but alone its still extremely hard even for a dmg class. 

 

Paladin still remains probably the 2nd best elf side class after druid for all pvp content, in terms of the value it brings to the battles, was it arena, gvg, whatever. I myself play mc, and when going against paladins in any pvp related content its instantly noticeable how much impact they have, lets take a look:

 

- AOE healing from talents (not so big amounts but its still there and certainly helps)

 

- Great AOE control with fetters and teleport. (Also nowadays easily being permanently cycled due to everyone being able to get so much Cooldown % and also even further boosted by subjucation)

 

-  AOE debuffs, most notably banner that alone is huge boost to dmg, being +25% dmg taken for the enemies. Has decent AOE dmg aswell with several skills although not the best. Can also AOE reduce healing reveiced by enemies.

 

- Exceptional group support, boosting all healing by 25%, boosting defence by 40% for whole pt, granting a shield to 2 people with relatively short cooldown, palading prayer giving a dmg boost to your party and other stuff.

 

....

 

Now, i understand that you cannot max out all of the skills at once but you cant have a full package, to gain something you have to lose something else. 

I don't disagree that Paladin is still one of the top classes for team play. But like you said, I think you're mixing up builds, yes Paladin can do all the things you mentioned but not in 1 build.

The only build that has "everything" is probably 2h magic build with the 1st branch. It's sufficiently tanky for the amount of support and AoE damage and control it provides. I agree. I didn't suggest anything that would make this type of build stronger, at least not without giving away something.

The suggestion that I made to increase damage for this build would greatly reduce its tankiness (points #5 and 6) .

The idea was to have an option to reduce the tankiness and gain a more fleshed out damage support build.

 

 

15 hours ago, Sandels said:

Despite having barely any real damage reduction skills and mostly just minor talents aside from pala, elves are extremely tanky and hard to kill due to all the other skills and talents they got, i dont think giving them actual aoe damage reduction is a good idea. Yes, defence can be bypassef by penetration but not everyone has 50% pene and even so, its easy to get more than 50% def, especially mdef. That aoe def increase that also stacks with druid barskin is a very noticeable boost. Paladin is the last class in the game that needs MORE tankiness, it already takes 2 top tier dmg classes to kill a pala that runs with the talent branch made for tanking, sometimes you wont finish the job even in 5 mins nonstop attacking the pala 2v1. From my experience only pala and warden are capable of being so absurdly tanky that in 5 mins nonstop attacking 2v1, let alone trying to do it by yourself, you cant finish the job.

The AoE defense increase is not a noticeable boost, even if it adds 40% and adds up with Druid's barkskin and other defense buffs like castle scrolls.

The reason is that defense has a diminishing return after a certain point, so 1000 defense to someone with 5000 defense, gives much more than someone with 8000 defense getting 1000 defense. Most people can reach 8k+ defense nowadays, and the protection resulting from that 40% is something like 5-8%. Which I don't think it's bad when applied to 5 people in 5v5 or GvGs.

Now let's say hypothetically my suggestion goes through, the same effect will be reached with 5 people, it might be a bit stronger in certain cases since then it would add up with other damage reduction effects. But you also need to consider that this skill would have to be 4/4, meaning we would have to sacrifice points from Banner or Harad's Call, which reduce damage and/or control. So it's not just a free extra tankiness. This can be an option for a less offensive, more defense support type Paladin. I wouldn't want that kind of Paladin to deal more damage,

 

The most extreme tankiness that Paladin can reach is with 1h magic mace + shield in the 3rd branch Bulwark of Faith, which I also discussed in my recent post. This build is pretty easy to deal with in team fights though. Yes it can take a couple of damagers to kill it, but so does every tank that is exclusively built to tank and not much else.

Yes that Paladin could still do AoE control and still have a decent heal, but the branch does not really provide too much value to that, it just makes Paladin more tanky and annoying to kill after all his party is dead. And since Paladin wouldn't be the first target and Paladin is probably the easiest tank to lock in control, the support potential of the branch (healing allies with block/parry) would render useless.

Since this kind of build doesn't really provide any additional offense compared to a full magical 2h build, and rather is weaker in terms of damage and support, the extra tankiness is ultimately useless in team fights and it doesn't justify playing this build, so I just suggested that it might need more anti-control capabilities integrated with this branch for this specific build.

 

 

15 hours ago, Sandels said:

1 handed physical dmg pala can actually do decent dmg to single targets while being reasonably tanky itself, also got one more stun and self healing from repellent strike. I dont know how good would a physical pala with spear do, i dont think ive ever seen even one that is properly built, but id imagine its not terrible either. You just lose the tankiness and support but still got better damage and have the control, relying on others to do the support role similar to how literally every other dmg build character does, they rely on someone else to do the support.

If Paladin wants to do decent physical damage with the 2nd branch, it gives away support, all that remains is the passive heal from Almahad talent (Which is kinda op for a physical build to have) and Sacred Shield, which is not as strong as before, I say it's an average shield at the moment. Certainly not stronger than protection skills from Wardens, DKs, or Chieftains. This kind of build is no different than a Barb, DK or Warden, they all are very tanky and have focused single target damage, good a mount of control, and a little bit of party support. Paladin might beat other tanks with the control, but I would argue they are also the weakest in terms of tankiness, as their self healing is much more unreliable since we rely on relics 10-15% chance, and the shield strike heal requires a combo that you need to perform within 6 seconds and Sun Seal needs to be not resisted and stay on the target for this period, this makes it fail more than often than not on average (in high level arena). Still, I think this type of build is fine as it is now and serves its purpose nicely, I don't think it needs any significant changes.

 

 

Generally what I like about Paladin is the different ways you can play it. I tried every branch with just about every possible weapon combination with them. But I guess I'm greedy and I want more options, I like the "a bit of everything" type of builds, but I would also like more specialized options for the magical builds - a more defensive option that is less offensive, and vice versa, something that is more offensive support, sacrificing the defense. But of course, I don't want everything in 1 build.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Gladiator

[Sandels 14]

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

Generally what I like about Paladin is the different ways you can play it. I tried every branch with just about every possible weapon combination with them. But I guess I'm greedy and I want more options, I like the "a bit of everything" type of builds, but I would also like more specialized options for the magical builds - a more defensive option that is less offensive, and vice versa, something that is more offensive support, sacrificing the defense. But of course, I don't want everything in 1 build.

I think this sums up my overall point. theres no other class that is as tanky as paladin, while also providing all the things pala can provide.

 

Dk for example, you can build it to be tanky and annoying with stuns but it has 0 real support apart from blood protection except minor things like hatred if you use talent, and if tou have a mage or chieftain to remove dark shield or blood protection, they become paper. Pala is one of those classes that is tanky by just existing and doesnt require specific conditions to be very tanky apart from healing every now and then, which also cannot be negated except with a well- timed apathy. Dmg build dks die very easily if theres any good dps in the team, as they should and i thinknit should be the same for paladin if they were to have better dmg.

 

Barb and warden fall to similar category where they can be tanky but they offer nothing to the team.

 

Charmer is in a pretty bad spot currently in my opinion, even 15 book ones with maxed gears die in seconds because they have no defensive abilities and their heal is barely decent, while bird dies in 2 hits. Physical ones can do dmg only if there isnt much aoe, or big dmg overall in the enemy team to get rid of dogs anytime theyre spawned. Charmer also cant work as a support due to bird dying in 2 hits and charmer buffs do basically nothing and are single target. Also the only reason staff charmer is decent is because of meteor, which is its only good control ability.

 

Also granting resist/negative effect removal skills or talents to a tanky class like paladin that can also cc and support, makes it just broken.

 

I would say that locks, and shamans with mute totem make things alot harder for paladins because they tend to stand in 1 spot, becoming easy to control by those 2 classes, but thats just how things should be. Every class should have atleast one heavy counter to them. 

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

but I would also like more specialized options

 

Im not against this at all but it must come with drawbacks. However most classes have even less options than paladins so be happy, chief has basically 1 build for all of content in pvp, pve. Yes you can choose between phys, magic or hybrid but your skills and gameplay remains the exact same with all of them. Only difference is if you go from physical into magic build you just change frenzy 4/4/ to meteor 4/4 and thats it. You cant build a "tank" chief, you cant build a support chief or a control chief. All you can do is dmg dmg dmg and your gameplay remains the same no matter what skills, talents and equips you use. Alot of classes suffer fron similar issues and they become extremely boring and repetitive to play. In the past years they have tried to add more options to most classes though which is a good direction to go.

 

Also i simply fear that giving actual damage reduction is just too much, even 10% is a huge difference. Elf classes focus on other ways to survive, mc classes rely heavily on dmg reduction skills and talents. Mc classes dont have shields or other ways to survive, All they have is heals + dmg reduction. 

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

The AoE defense increase is not a noticeable boost, even if it adds 40%

Lastly this, the less def you have, the better it gets. Its a big boost to all cloth and light armor users, which are the main problems and targets in fights and the ones you need to kill first, its a big difference for them. I play chief with cloth armor, i only have like 3.8k def, and whenever i get a protection buff from shaman and often its not even 5/5, its a very noticeable difference. My phys def goes from 36.9% to 44.9% with lv 4 shaman protection which is 45% increase to def. That is 8%, Its a big boost. Sure if youre against max pene enemies it has less effect but it can be stacked to over 60% with other skills and effects so then it also is a huge boost against max pene people. In conclusion its not as big deal to heavy armor users who already have high def%, but its a big boost to all cloth and light users.