vavavi

It's not like locks don't already have lots of defensive skills, they're extremely tanky for a cloth class. Tankier than most of them.
 
Having to exchange some of their offensive capabilities for defensive ones, like locks 3rd brsnch, is normal. Most classes have this option. Why should it come for free for locks?
 
Locks already have so much damage reduction, if you add even more you'll soon turn a cloth user into a tank class. Locks can already reach warden forti levels of damage reduction (Fortification is 30% at 4/4, locks get 20% passive from power of relaxation talent, and 12,5% at max from draining life skill) and get passive heals. How is that not enough survivability for an offensive cloth user?

Oh come on, if you genuinely cant aim a 3x3 stun with a talent that even gives you a chance to extend that range, thats a issue on the players part, not the class. It really isn't that difficult.
And yea it isn't the same thing, but both points of view are equally as important. If you only ever asked the users of one class if its balanced they would always just ask for it to be buffed. Both perspectives are required.
You have passive dmg reduction from power of relaxation talent, that doesn't count as defensive? Also skills that boost your heals, and stone? You're exaggerating alot.
 
You have a class that can become the highest single target magic damager, or a class with best crowd control in the game. You think just because you cant have both at the same time it makes the class weak? That's crazy, you're not supposed to have everything at once.
You talk like no other class relys on their stuns and debuffs to be viable, like it's just a warlock problem. Templars, druids, priests, palas, reapers, rogues, hunters, charmers etc etc all suffer from people having high resist. This isn't some class specific thing. Locks just happen to be the only class that has actual tools to counter it. 
 
 
 
 

Updated to 12.3.0 (AUR also updated)

Mages are meant to be this brawler type magic char, and since alot of their skills require them to be in melee range, obviously they have to be kind of tanky. But I wouldn't go as far as call them a damager, their damage is still low compared to actual damage dealers.

Mages are meant to be this brawler type magic char, and since alot of their skills require them to be in melee range, obviously they have to be kind of tanky. But I wouldn't go as far as call them a damager, their damage is still low compared to actual damage dealers.

I don't understand the part about malicious players getting people banned. How is a guild working together to secure a boss kill and then splitting the gold malicious in any way?
 
Also as for the suggestion, these bosses are supposed to be something you compete for. They are one of the main sources of mass pvp in most servers, encouraging guilds to work together to fight for the kills. Turning them into a world event kind of afk mess would kill a big part of pvp and competition within the game.
 
One less detrimental change would be a system where, for example 20 random members present of the guild/guilds(if mixed party) that get the kill, would receive a chest. Within this chest would be all the regular drops + a rare chance for the bosses costume, but not the dedicated book drop. This would still motivate people to fight for those kills, while also giving people outside the kill parties a reason to show up. Reason for the books not being in those chests is that some of those books are strong enough to instantly swing the balance between, for example, guilds competing for arena ranks, and should be something you have to compete properly for.

I kind of disagree on it taking extremely long. With ayvondil changes and t4/t3 being super fast to open, you can get decent gears relatively fast. Especially if eventually you'll end up having, for example, 2 chars at that stage, and do pelion on both of them 1-2x a week.
 
While it's true that doing quests isn't going to get you to a high amp instantly, you can pretty comfortably get good enough gears to start doing different content. Especially since most of the gears nowadays are extremely cheap, as long as they're not the most meta choice.
 
Personally i think a big part of why it feels like it's impossible to reach high level content is that there is a really big jump in difficulty from ayvondil t4 to t5/almahad. But it's not impossible, it'll just take some time. You'll need to build a good base for a char: some talents, decent gears and hopefully near max level. That takes proportionally alot more time than anything before that, which is why closing that gap will probably seem like a brick wall for alot of people, especially if they're looking for completely linear progression. 
 
 

That's a cool surprise. Merry Christmas and happy new year!

Wanting a mage barrier but one that lasts triple the time, lul

People just like to ignore stealth existing, idk why, it's so strong both offensively and defensively. Even this length is way more abusable for rogues than mages since they can just wait the cd in stealth. 
 
Rogues got a massive defensive buff for pvp and a massive dmg buff for PvE, but still all the rogues just complain. How can you even take it seriously at this point lol.

VID_20231108150649.mp4   This is just a few examples of how insanely abusable this class is. You have no counterplay to it, you cant stun it, silence it, sap it, run away from it or do damage to it.
 
Rugged hide should be turned into a def increasing skill such as druids, or be toned down in either duration or the amount of damage reduction, and resist has to change too. A virutally permanent immunity to any cc makes this class unstoppable. Possible changes could be either making the resist have stacks like bds, or make it only work against control effects, so things such as silences could atleast go through, allowing for some counterplay.
 
 
 

The major problem with chiefs isn't the damage itself, it's them being unstoppable and almost unkillable with their extremely long resist skill and rugged/heal combo. Not to mention you can't even run away from their damage since for some reason they need to run fast too.
 
Point being, the damage only becomes too much when theres literally no way to counter it

Correct me if im wrong, but sanguine protection is a damage reduction skill right? Comparing that to a shield with limited capability isn't exactly a proper comparison.
 
Yes while its true dks aren't the ideal class for gvgs, that same goes for basically every tank. Can't have everything on one class.
 
Also yes, mages magic ban is a hard counter to dks tankyness, but its also basically the only proper counter that elf actually has. Also it's only super effective in a situation where the mage has a partner that is able to even deal the required damage after it has been used. I can't see a mage being able to beat a dk in anything short of atleast a 2v1 situation.
Seekers dmg is insane, that much is true, but they don't have that much resist either. The only reaist buff that is in any way viable in arena is their short 8% boost after stealth. Druids i can see being a hard match up for dks, but for them theres also simple counters. A chief for example can simply just remove their heals and leave them extremely vulnerable to just instantly dying, much like what a mage can do to dks defensive skills.

Dks seem to survive against my bd just fine. 2h ones a are less tanky sure but thats the tradeoff you sign up for not using shield.

Chiefs aren't inherently a frontline class though. They're perfectly capable of hanging in the middle of the pack, casting their high dmg aoe skills. The fact that a low def cloth user class can even play frontline better than tanks designed for it, speaks volumes already about how broken their skill set is.

VID_20231108150649.mp4   This is just a few examples of how insanely abusable this class is. You have no counterplay to it, you cant stun it, silence it, sap it, run away from it or do damage to it.
 
Rugged hide should be turned into a def increasing skill such as druids, or be toned down in either duration or the amount of damage reduction, and resist has to change too. A virutally permanent immunity to any cc makes this class unstoppable. Possible changes could be either making the resist have stacks like bds, or make it only work against control effects, so things such as silences could atleast go through, allowing for some counterplay.
 
 
 

Correct me if im wrong, but sanguine protection is a damage reduction skill right? Comparing that to a shield with limited capability isn't exactly a proper comparison.
 
Yes while its true dks aren't the ideal class for gvgs, that same goes for basically every tank. Can't have everything on one class.
 
Also yes, mages magic ban is a hard counter to dks tankyness, but its also basically the only proper counter that elf actually has. Also it's only super effective in a situation where the mage has a partner that is able to even deal the required damage after it has been used. I can't see a mage being able to beat a dk in anything short of atleast a 2v1 situation.
Seekers dmg is insane, that much is true, but they don't have that much resist either. The only reaist buff that is in any way viable in arena is their short 8% boost after stealth. Druids i can see being a hard match up for dks, but for them theres also simple counters. A chief for example can simply just remove their heals and leave them extremely vulnerable to just instantly dying, much like what a mage can do to dks defensive skills.

Heal classes are generally meant to be mainly playing a supportive role. They're not meant to be tanks that can run to the frontlines and withstand massive amounts of damage. 

A dk using 2h isn't supposed to be as tanky as a shield user though. Surely with those gears and books you could easily just use a shield and be extremely tanky. Block is just raw dmg reduction, it's not just the def increase from shield. Dks should lose tankyness the same way wardens and paladins lose alot of theirs for using 2h weapons.
In this video your resilience is being lowered by the "wrath of gladiator" skill that is a reward from arena rankings. And fron what i could tell from the video, it got to tick down for a good while, meaning you could have lost as much as 30-40% resi by the time you died, explaining the high damage taken at the end.

Essay time!
 
About the "Other classes can do that if they also have Orcinus" argument. No they can't. There is no other class that, with Orcinus, gets to be pretty much infinitely invincible to debuffs + have a permanent 40%-60%+ damage reduction + increased movement speed that is also pretty much always active. All that whilst having of the highest single target damage in the game + and unnecessarily strong AoE bleed (There is no reason for a full physical Chieftain to deal this much AoE). This ends up with a class that you can't outrun, you can't control, and if you try to tank it with shield/heal they can remove it all and nuke you still. And it is incredibly hard to kill due to the damage reduction + life steal and AoE damage. I mean if you look at the HPs of those Chieftains in the videos, it's like they're being healed by 5 Shamans, all because of bleed + LS. The videos are self-explanatory. You can not, with a right mind, look at these videos and think "yeah that's fine to exist in the game".
 
Other classes with these books might become extremely strong, like a DK with Orci/Octo or Druids, Shamans, BDs, and so on, and of course, not all classes benefit to the same extent from these books. But they all have their limits, they just can't tank 1-2+ full greatness parties for this long and kill half of them before they die. you're delusional if you think so.
By the way, I don't know if it exists, but Beastmaster with Orcinus would also be pretty broken, I can only imagine tree and aura+rampage with Orci, but guess what, no one is saying BM is not still OP without it. But even then, at least you have a better chance controlling BM. That's the level of broken-ness we're talking about, imagine an uncontrollable BM with an almost perma tree.
And I'm not exaggerating, BM with Orci could very realistically have trees with like maybe 5 seconds gaps! You wouldn't even need that crazy of a cooldown. That should not exist, and if it does, then the problem is not just Orci book.
The point is, Orcinus alone can't take a class from balanced to uncounterable, if it does, then it's not "just the book" and the class wasn't balanced in the first place.
 
So, I can assure you, it will be fixed eventually, it is a matter of when, and more importantly, how. So instead of ignoring that fact and getting defensive about it, you better start suggesting ways to fix it without nerfing Chieftain into the ground, because devs do have the tendency to nerf things into oblivion after having their moment of glory.
For me, nerf that bleeding talent, I knew it was broken from the test server when it was released. And after that, it's really one or both of 2 options, either make Octo/Orci give 15% like the Subjugation one. Or reduce the durations of Support of the Pack and Rugged Hide (or increaase cooldowns), but you can't have it both.
The way I see it, both can be true. Both Chieftain and the books need to be nerfed.

"Right... But I noticed that you play elf, I don't see MC complaining... Have you considered that elves like to cry for no reason and because they don't want to lose wars? I saw vid pala tank 3 random ppl so I think tanks can be this level of unkillable while also doing 800k+ damage. So what if cloth armor chieftain also tank a whole town of elves while killing half of them??? Sux for u lol. Also I think mage and BM are worse, even though there are full crowds of elves including both BMs and mages in all of these videos. You ask nerf cuz u mad u lose pvp???? Maybe you should stop crying and play better noob"
 
 

 

Priests kit in general is fairly good, but there are couple skills that are somewhat obsolete.

Resurrection skill as it currently stands is useful to have, but an absolute waste to put any points on. The increased range rarely comes into play, and the increased mana cost is really punishing. My suggestion is:
 
A. Get rid of the mana cost increase
 
B. Add a invulnerability buff to the resurrected target when the skill has been used. This invulnerability buff wouldn't allow the target to be attacked, or for them to attack other players.
 
C. Add a movement speed buff to the resurrected target.
 
For example: 
2/3/4/5 seconds of invulnerability and
20/25/30/35% movement speed increase, depending on the skills level.
 
This would give this skill some form of utility in mass pvp situations, such as gvg, where instead of reviving an ally to instantly get killed by AoE damage, it would give them some time to get away and rejoin the fight after regrouping. 
This same could be done for necros matching skill.
 

The second obsolete skill is Word of power. At it's best, this skill works as a delayed damage skill, at worst it does nothing. Putting points into this skill actually makes it less effective. The longer duration of the effect means the damage is even more delayed, actually lowering it's overall damage.
 
My suggestion for this is:
 
A. Get rid of the mana drain aspect of this skill completely and replace it with an effect that slows the target down, while adding the taken away movement speed to the priest.
 
For example: 10/15/20/25/30% slow on target, and 10/15/20/25/30% movement speed added to the user, for 3/4/5/6/7 seconds respectively.
 
B. In order to balance this effect, the skills cooldown should be increased so it doesn't become a permanent thing. 
 
This would allow the skill to have some utility, especially in places like arena where it would compliment priests already "stay back and support" heavy playstyle. In PvE it would allow for some movement utility which would just be nice.
 

Finally, redemption. This skill as it stands, is a very strong skill, the heal from it is nice, but it's debuff removal aspect is a bit worthless. Currently it can't remove any bleeds, ground stuns or DoT effects.
 
My suggestion is:
 
Make this skill able to remove DoT effects, bleeds and ground stuns from people (Such as circle, locks silence zone).
 
But in order to balance this, reduce its current healing amount (150% of magic at 4/4 for example), cut the maximum allies down to 6, reduce the amount of debuffs removed to 3 and increase it's cooldown.
 
This would make it less effective as a healing tool, but it would give it some nice utility in exchange for being able to use it less frequently and to less people. Essentially reducing the amount of debuffs it removes, but giving it back it's ability to remove a higher variety of them.

2 classes can be broken at the same time. It isn't mutually exclusive.

Guess all we can do is hope the rebalance thats coming will be something that keeps the majority of people happy. Personally im excited to see a meta shift atleast, whichever way it goes. Maybe will even get to upgrade and play rogue if they become unstoppable.