Gladiator

Light at the end of the tunnel for Paladins

I think it should have been a counter to resistance. Like 15% subjugation cancels out 15% resistance

Sorry but goddamn what a bunch of dumb arguments... 1) To argue against nerfing Chieftain just because it's "the only class in mc that actually can gives a hard fight to elves" or "the only class out of the entire MC side which consistently competes with the elf side" is just mind-blowing to me. Dude, 1 chieftain giving 20 elves a hard time is not a good thing and does not make for a balanced game. I like how the best you can come up with is "yeah we know Chieftain is OP" followed by some baseless justifications. Also that's not even true, Reapers, Hunters and Charmers are pretty dam strong too, and Warlocks are still the best crowd control in the game for large scale wars regardless of their status in Arena which is still above average. And no one said nerf Chieftain and only nerf Chieftain, it's just that Chieftain is a glaring problem that needs to be dealt with because it's game-breaking , idc what happens to other classes as long as the an overall balance is being attempted. Never in the history of the game only 1 class got changed in a balance update. I don't understand the need for you to defend Chieftain every time when you KNOW it's OP, go ask to buff your "pathetic" classes instead of wanting and being ok with Chieftain doing all your sides work, damn. In fact, you should be the first one to call it out, otherwise what's the point of your classes? Everyone should make a Chieftain. 2) Since you're talking about using brains, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you didn't see the videos and you're talking out of your behind (best case scenario for you), but none of these videos are 1v1 PvPs. 3) I somehow doubt that Beastmaster's Moon (main damage) is gonna be able to survive the damage and control of even just 1 reaper, let alone a crowd... That's why I said show me, cus you ain't gonna find that at the same scale of Chieftains.

Orci book is definitely overpowered, but so is Chieftain. Show me any other class with Orci or any other combination of books for that matter doing what Chieftain is doing right now in these videos and other videos posted in the Russian sections. That means for example dealing 100ks worth of damage in a couple of minutes in arena, while tanking 5+ top arena geared sentinels for several minutes. If you can't, then it's not just because of the books. The most you can probably find is maybe a Deathknight or a Warden that that tanks a bunch of people for some time but without being able to do any serious harm.

Also, can we buff the base magic of magic one handed maces or maybe increase the enchant value to match the hammer's? I feel like +10 lvl33 mace having only 265 magic while physical maces have 137 seems like too much of small difference when considering +10 phy mace also has 726 physical vs 385 in magic mace. I just don't get why Paladin has to completely sacrifice any forms of damage to have any sustainable tankiness and support in today's state of the game.

Glad you noticed

Except chiefs don't receive 50% less healing and life steal, they don't have 30% of max HP, and they also self heal by a lot alongside the life steal (you said it). All of these factors is the reason it works against Seekers. No one claimed it to be as effective or decisive vs other classes. Against chieftains, or any other class for that matter, it really is "just" life steal negation at the end of the day (as long as they have more LS than your dmg reflect anyway). There are many buffs or items that are more useful against certain classes than others, I don't see it as an issue. It would be pretty crazy if 50% retribution killed every damager without touching them, not just seekers with that talent, no?

Did they announce any planned changes?

I don't appreciate this damage reflect slander... It's not just ls negation. 20% retribution negates 40% seeker life steal (because 20% under the rage talent). So yeah, I guess, if a seeker has 40% LS, then the potion is "just" LS negation (still a big deal by the way). And every class can reach at least 10k HP, and every 10k damage dealt by the seeker, the seeker loses 3k (30% retri) no matter what, doesn't matter if he hits you 1k or 3k or 5k per hit, i.e. no matter how tanky you are, as long as you have the HP. And I really doubt that most classes can't do 1k damage to a seeker before they take 10k. If we're talking about similar levels of gearing, books, etc... That being said: It was really mainly a response to this comment, glorifying the 55% damage reduction. I find it unproductive to harp on this specific talent, when it is literally counterable by 1 potion.

It really does make that talent pretty impossible to run in PvP. I used a 50% damage reflect set for the memes and a seeker would hit me x3 2ks and gets hit x3 1ks and dies lol (it goes through everything including shields). Now realistically: - around 30% damage reflection (just a potion + weapon enchant) - seeker with 10k HP -> 3k HP - 10k damage would be needed to be dealt by seeker to kill the seeker without touching him, surely most classes can handle 10k damage. if we account for their life steal (20% / 2 = 10%), they'd heal 1k back, surely most classes can deal 1k damage to overcome that while seeker does 10k. But even if it does not straight up kills them realistically with barely touching them, it makes them significantly weaker (you'd you just need to do 1k damage in that example). So what if it just "makes it harder", do you need a instant kill against seekers with that talent? It shouldn't make their life impossible to be a good counter.

Ok so you didn't try it.

Regardless of whether or not Seeker as a whole needs a nerf or not (it probably does), I wanna address this one point made about the rage talent. Losing 30% of the max HP and 50% of healing and life steal, and having 55% damage reduction in return in no way makes seekers tanky. It does not make sense to consider this 55% damage reduction as a "tank" characteristic when the overall survival is reduced due to max HP and healing reduction. Also that damage reduction is easily bypassed: It is definitely a big trade-off of survivability, especially in PvP. With some retribution (a potion for example), it really is suicide to have it active. In PvE though, it's a different story, because there is so many mobs, and because the insane (aoe) damage, the life steal, even when reduced, overcomes the received damage by alot.

Have you seen 3 dogs with 3k HP each?

That's kinda the whole point of the class. Well done describing Beastmaster. Also, Charmer's summons also share the charmer's stats too.

Increase the quest limit to 100 quests

I don't mind having agro skills be more useful than a target reset in PvP but also I don't think they should be anything crazy. In Skylore for example, agro skills work in PvP as well, the force the enemy to interrupt what they're doing and do the next auto attack on the tank. It would be nice to see it work like that in Warspear too. But also, I can see how it can be broken with their current cooldowns.

Not only that, judging by the damage, he's also using a magic mace... This guy made a post in just about every class section that's not DK demanding a nerf providing the silliest videos, I wouldn't take him seriously.

What bleeds does Paladin have? I tested 15% Subjugation and it definitely increased Fetters' and Call's stun duration

I mean that would be nice of course, but i don't mind the accuracy. It's good for higher levels of Almahad, where enemies have very high dodge, with that accu boost, you can build up your accu to reach close to 40%-50% pretty easily. But even if you don't wanna reach that high, you can get rings and bracelets with HP instead of accuracy for example, and thereby benefit from that boost to make yourself tankier.

Essay time! About the "Other classes can do that if they also have Orcinus" argument. No they can't. There is no other class that, with Orcinus, gets to be pretty much infinitely invincible to debuffs + have a permanent 40%-60%+ damage reduction + increased movement speed that is also pretty much always active. All that whilst having of the highest single target damage in the game + and unnecessarily strong AoE bleed (There is no reason for a full physical Chieftain to deal this much AoE). This ends up with a class that you can't outrun, you can't control, and if you try to tank it with shield/heal they can remove it all and nuke you still. And it is incredibly hard to kill due to the damage reduction + life steal and AoE damage. I mean if you look at the HPs of those Chieftains in the videos, it's like they're being healed by 5 Shamans, all because of bleed + LS. The videos are self-explanatory. You can not, with a right mind, look at these videos and think "yeah that's fine to exist in the game". Other classes with these books might become extremely strong, like a DK with Orci/Octo or Druids, Shamans, BDs, and so on, and of course, not all classes benefit to the same extent from these books. But they all have their limits, they just can't tank 1-2+ full greatness parties for this long and kill half of them before they die. you're delusional if you think so. By the way, I don't know if it exists, but Beastmaster with Orcinus would also be pretty broken, I can only imagine tree and aura+rampage with Orci, but guess what, no one is saying BM is not still OP without it. But even then, at least you have a better chance controlling BM. That's the level of broken-ness we're talking about, imagine an uncontrollable BM with an almost perma tree. And I'm not exaggerating, BM with Orci could very realistically have trees with like maybe 5 seconds gaps! You wouldn't even need that crazy of a cooldown. That should not exist, and if it does, then the problem is not just Orci book. The point is, Orcinus alone can't take a class from balanced to uncounterable, if it does, then it's not "just the book" and the class wasn't balanced in the first place. So, I can assure you, it will be fixed eventually, it is a matter of when, and more importantly, how. So instead of ignoring that fact and getting defensive about it, you better start suggesting ways to fix it without nerfing Chieftain into the ground, because devs do have the tendency to nerf things into oblivion after having their moment of glory. For me, nerf that bleeding talent, I knew it was broken from the test server when it was released. And after that, it's really one or both of 2 options, either make Octo/Orci give 15% like the Subjugation one. Or reduce the durations of Support of the Pack and Rugged Hide (or increaase cooldowns), but you can't have it both. The way I see it, both can be true. Both Chieftain and the books need to be nerfed.

I don't think the healing power is the problem but rather the cooldown. An average BM with 80% CD gets the skill from 32s to about 17s 6 seconds of that 17 is the BM under the tree effect, this leaves an "effective cooldown" of only around 10 seconds! That's it why it feels like "it has no CD". For comparison, Warlock's Stone Body also has 35s CD and a duration of 10 seconds, but as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, Stone Body only starts cooling down after the skill is off, and not as soon as it is casted, since it has a different activation mechanic (like invisibility skills). Needless to say, Proximity is definitely too strong, specifically its cooldown.

The game's overall balance might seem all over the place nowadays, which I do think is the case due to a couple of classes (e.g. Chieftain, Reaper, and Beastmaster) and items in the game (Castle potions and Octopus and Orcinus books). But other than that, in my opinion, Paladin is in a pretty good spot in most areas of the game, except in few aspects due to some outdated skills and I'm here to discuss some of these issues. I do think some of the Paladin's skills need to be revisited, especially Light Defense and Sun Seal. But here I also have a couple of ideas to rework some other skills and talents that can help Paladin fulfill purposes that it already has but very untapped. 1. Light Defense In my previous topic analysis of Paladin's defensive skills, I discussed the defensive powers of Inner Force, Light Defense, and Sacred Shield from a neutral perspective. Most notably, I found that Light Defense is a reasonably good defensive skill at level 4/4 in a full party and a stronger skill than Inner Force on a solo-level if the Paladin's HP is higher than 40%. But also that defensive capability is approximately 10% damage reduction, which is weak by all standards of the game (Unless you think about 10% protection to 5 people in GvG). Which is still pretty weak for the 3 skill points, considering that a GvG-situation is not very common. So, since the skill is pretty good with 5 people, but pretty weak below that, I suggest few options to make it better: (Keep in mind, I tried to suggest numbers that make sense but they are just examples and are up for debate) Option 1: - To make it simpler, make the skill an area spell that casts a buff of a set amount of % damage reduction within it, that also splits among the affected party members: So at level 4/4, if the skill is affecting ... 5 players, it gives 8% damage reduction 4 players, it gives 10% damage reduction 3 players, it gives 11% damage reduction 2 players, it gives 13% damage reduction 1 player, it gives 15% damage reduction Option 2: - Keep it as it is now, maybe reduce its duration or increase its cooldown, and add one of the following additional effects that scale back according to the number of affected allies: If physical damage is higher than magical damage: Periodic HP% regen for affected party members. For example 5%-6%-8%-10% of Paladin's HP every 10 seconds (Unaffected by any healing modifiers). The value of HP recovered would be split among the affected targets. If magic value is higher than physical: the skill provides periodic debuff cleansing. 1-1-2-2 debuff(s) removal every X amount of seconds. X depends on the number of affected targets: 5 players - 18 seconds, 4 players - 16 seconds, 3 players - 14 seconds, 2 players - 12 seconds, 1 player 10 seconds. Or If using a two-handed weapon: it additionally reflects 6%-7%-9%-12%-15% of the damage dealt to the party members back to the enemy, depending on the affect number of players (5-4-3-2-1) If using a one-handed weapon and shield: It additionally increases party members' Resistance parameter by 5%-6%-8%-10%-10% (affected players: 5-4-3-2-1) As I was writing this I kinda realized how hard is it to make a bonus value that is not broken for 1 person that it would still be relevant for 5 people if you divide it by 5... But you get the point, I think the skill should be redesiged in a way that it is not completely useless other than with full party. I'll leave it up to the brilliant devs that figure out. 2. Sun Seal Heal effect based on damage dealt (5%-10%-13%-16%) from Sun Seal seems very good on paper. I mean 16% life steal with basically permanent duration? Sign me up! And indeed it was is pretty good in my experience when playing with physical damage weapons in PvE. It helps tank minibosses a lot and serves as nice bonus to your life steal and potentially even replacing the need for it. This is all good and dandy as long as the fight is with a single high HP opponent - a boss. However, it was never possible to gain any value out of it in PvP. Most of the time there are many opponents, most people have heavy mermen that can cleanse the seal debuff, and most people have a high resistance. And even in PvE, dungeon monsters do not have a high enough HP to survive long enough to get the full benefit of the 25 seconds of a 4/4 Sun Seal. Sun Seal is mostly a single target damage dealer skill with average multipliers. It would be great to see a change that better enable that healing aspect of the skill. It should have an additional effect: - If ally hitting target with seal already has full HP, instead of wasted heals, it transfers the heals to the next party member with lowest HP. And more importantly for PvE: - If enemy dies while seal active, depending on remaining seconds of duration, heals all party members around target by 5x5 radius with a certain amount. For example if there is 10 seconds duration left, it heals 10% of the HP or something like that. In most extreme case if Sun Seal was used as a final blow, it would have 25 seconds left, so 25% of the ally's HP. And to increase its reliability against bosses and minibosses as it gets resisted by bosses a lot, I also suggest making it irresistible at levels 3-4. 3. Shield Strike with magic mace: With the addition of the branch "Bulwark of Faith", one-handed magic mace and shields gained a lot more popularity as it makes Paladin very tanky while maintaining a good level of support. But those builds are the worst in terms of damage, overall, the build lacks that oomph. Now, of course it is not supposed to do that much damage if it is going to be this tanky, but also it should be able to do some damage... It certainly won't break it. Suggestion: - Adjust the formula and make the damage scale off of both magic + physical damage instead of just physical damage. Scale back the phyiscal damage part so that the added magic calculation does not significantly increase the current skill damage for normal physical maces with magic sub-stats. --Extras-- Other fixes that are not as a essential. These suggestions have a theme: Magic Paladin as a damage dealer and buffer in PvP. Let me first say, magic Paladin in PvE is already in great shape at the moment, but let's be honest, in PvP it is extremely underwhelming, it is just a glorified healer that stands there and does nothing but heal and shield, it poses very limited offensive threat to the enemies and ends a up like a loud, annoying bug that does not sting so you wave it away every now and then. All other healers (maybe besides Necromancer) deal a very considerable amounts of damage, are pretty tanky, as well as provide as good, if not better support than Paladin... 4. Sacred Shield talent Right now, it only increases damage against monsters. I don't see why it shouldn't apply in against players too, shield tends to break fast anyway, it's not gonna break the game... It would be a nice little bonus. 5. Inner Force rework for two-handed weapons: This one is admittedly a little ambitious, I doubt it's gonna happen since it is a pretty radical change to the skill mechanic, but nothing to lose I guess, so I'll just put it out there: I always disliked how selfish Inner Force and its talents are. It is good that it makes Paladin a viable tank, however, I think if the Paladin is using two-handed weapons the skill should serve a different purpose that suit the 2-handed weapon better. I also think it can make two-handed magic Paladin a little too tanky especially in PvP, in my opinion. So I think if Paladin is using 2-handed weapons it should not give tankiness but rather it should provide different effects that are rather offensive/offense support. Inner Force: If using two-handed weapons, it increases physical and magical powers of party members depending on Paladin's missing health: 1% phyiscal and 1.5% magic for every 12%-10%-8%-6% HP missing. Talent "External Influence": If using two-handed weapons, increases damage dealt by allies from skills by 1.5% depending on missing health. Talent "Unbroken Spirit": If using two-handed weapons, it increases Cooldown instead, +5% and additional 1% depending missing health. 6. "Reckoning" Talent Branch And finally, to go with the mentioned Inner Force rework, Reckoning talent branch needs an overhaul. It's not a priority since most Paladins already chose a different branch, and rebalancing this branch would take a very long time to see its effect. What would be great to see if that Aura talent "Everburning Candle" would synergize with the Inner Force rework and much like a candle (implied by the name) The Paladin would "burn and melt" his own HP to provide additional "light" to his allies. So it would work as following: - While Light Aura is active, each time a healing effect is received by a party member, the Paladin sacrifices 10% of the healed amount of from his own HP. Every 2 seconds, 100% of the amount of sacrificed HP over the 2 seconds is added to each party member affected by Light Aura (except Paladin). This effect stops if the Paladin is below 40% HP. The same concept could be applied to "Faith Reckoning" by adding a condition that increases the chance of applying the negative effect as the HP decreases. The chance starts with the current 20% at 100% HP, and every 20% HP lost adds 20% chance to activate. But the idea is to have a legitimate and fleshed out damage/support archetype for Paladin with a 2 handed build that is viable for PvP and PvE. Something that the Paladin already kinda has with Banner but that's it really, and the damage aspect of Paladin in PvP is very overshadowed. Now, I can see the argument that this would make magic Paladin in PvE too good, but come on, is it really gonna be better than Seekers, BDs, Mages, and Beastmasters? I doubt it. Mainly because all of these reworks rely on Paladin being low HP, and typically, 1 Illumination usage with decent Life Steal instantly fills up Palas HP. So I don't think that Paladin is gonna be low HP for a long time to make these additions all that crazy. Keep mind, Pala would lose the damage reduction and healing power from Inner Force and its talent, in fact, due to the "Everburning Candle" talent, not only would the Paladin sacrifice 10% of the party's healing, but also effectively receives 10% less healing himself. That's it, whachu think?

Everyone is talking about buff/nerf but whatever they do, all I really care about is this quality-of-life change for BM: Show ally Moon's HP for party members below the the HP bar of the respective BM and allow to support it by clicking on its HP there: Since the Moon is the main aspect of the BM, and most of time it is the focus of enemy attacks, I think having the HP visible for party members is very crucial for BM. Especially in bigger wars where Moon can get lost in the crowds. All in all, it would make BM a better team partner.

No but you tried to casually make the point that maybe tanks are also as unkillable as the Chieftains in the videos, so it's fine for Chieftain to tank a whole party while doing 800k+ damage. But hey, it's just cuz of +10 and buffs right? Everyone with +10 and buffs should be able to do that!

"Right... But I noticed that you play elf, I don't see MC complaining... Have you considered that elves like to cry for no reason and because they don't want to lose wars? I saw vid pala tank 3 random ppl so I think tanks can be this level of unkillable while also doing 800k+ damage. So what if cloth armor chieftain also tank a whole town of elves while killing half of them??? Sux for u lol. Also I think mage and BM are worse, even though there are full crowds of elves including both BMs and mages in all of these videos. You ask nerf cuz u mad u lose pvp???? Maybe you should stop crying and play better noob"